I really like the General Grabber AT2 as well. However I'm playing with the idea of going to 275/65, it opens up the choices.
I am not sure what modifications I would need to do or if I could simply get some rods (probably Sasquatch).
Overland Journal Project Land Rover Discovery 4 (LR4)
- Thread starter Scott Brady
- Start date
I really like the General Grabber AT2 as well. However I'm playing with the idea of going to 275/65, it opens up the choices.
I am not sure what modifications I would need to do or if I could simply get some rods (probably Sasquatch).
pgoodrich
Observer
Thanks for the update. Anyone else concerned with a air suspension failure, that has come up with a solution? I just picked up an LR3 thursday, coming from a D2. I am looking for 32" tires with rod or IID tool but concerned about suspension failure leaving me stranded.
I just had a complete air suspension failure two weeks ago. I was at 8600 feet crossing the Silver Canyon trail across the White Mountain Range when the system failed and dropped to the bump stops. I hooked up my fault mate and was presented with the computer telling me that it was not receiving signals from any of the height sensors or the valves. I could control the compressor but without access to valves I could not close them. I reset everything, cleared the faults, pulled the battery and so on. Even though I changed the bump stops to run bigger tires, there is still some movement in the suspension and rubbing still occurred. I ended up having to pull fuses and remove the airlines and put on my emergency air up schrader valves that allowed me to bypass the system entirely, not an easy thing to do. This is how the truck sits now. I have not had time to resolve the initial fault. I ended up having to use my fourth and last option to get off the trail. I equate this to breaking a coil spring on a Jeep. I now have a 100k on the truck. I have replaced all the height sensor, air springs and struts and the compressor about 10k ago. The air suspension on these trucks are their greatest strength and weakness at the same time. I am not sure about the IID tools ability to give commands. It may only clear faults. With 32" tires and a bump stop fault you will rub on the plastic splash guards. Your ground clearance will be low so no rock crawling out. Since my air lines are cut for the schrader valves, I will make the modification permanent and install valves that allow me to switch between air sources for the springs. There is a product called Faskit for the LR3/D3 but its very although a quality kit. I will be modding the air system to a similar configuration.
There is always a possibility of being stranded. I was not alone on the run so at least I had moral support. We were provisioned for cold weather camping so we were fine there. I have been worried about a suspension fault since I bought the truck in 09. Eventually if you drive one on the trail enough it will happen. Don't be too afraid of the air suspension, just be prepared for it. There is always the coil spring route but from what I have heard, it severely detracts from the truck.
Without a air suspension failure strategy / bump stop increase I don't think 32" or larger tires are a viable alternative. Not a "Land Rover" unique perspective but you WILL experience an issue at the most inconvenient time. The IID tool might clear the fault, but what if it can't?
In summary a 275/65-18 tire at 32+" OD comes after you've fitted the air suspension failure solution. Now, what is that?
In summary a 275/65-18 tire at 32+" OD comes after you've fitted the air suspension failure solution. Now, what is that?
SteveMfr
Supporting Sponsor
And I was just about to post that a failure such as JAK's is highly unlikely... LOL
JAK, just as info: the IIDTool actually has better EAS functionality than the Faultmate due to the ability to reprogram the heights quickly front, rear, or all. All other functions are there: manual control of all valves and components in the EAS system, so pumping up the vehicle by manually controlling the valves and compressor is not an issue. The IIDTool is more or less on par with the Faultmate - despite its size, it is not a lesser system The Faultmate still has more CCF (car configuration file) options than the IIDTool (because our philosophy is to test each and every function before releasing SW if at all possible) and we have to resolve our ECU flashing procedures, but in terms of basic diagnostic functions, the Faultmate MSV no longer has any significant advantage. We'll be making some announcements regarding our products very soon.
I will be very interested in hearing what your problem was. The normal state of the air valves for the springs is closed - so I do not understand why you were not able to keep air in the bags once you had inflated them. I have def learned never to say never when it comes to automotive electronics, tho. My L322 RR was DOA for several hours several weeks ago due to a damp ECU that crashed the bus system. Not even a diagnostic system worked...
I run 275/65 18's on my RR. My philosophy when it comes to making the EAS failure-safe follows the KISS principle. I do not like the idea of adding Schrader valves and additional junctions to an otherwise intact system because it only increases the potential for leaks. I've always used jumper wires to run the compressor and pump the EAS up by manually switching the valves (tho I have to admit I've never had to do this on any other vehicle than my P38 RR. Got a lot of practice there, tho.). I was asked to follow up on this by someone here in the forum a year ago for the LR3 and post where the easiest spot to go to (to jumper) is and what pins / wires to jumper. I started to check wiring but realized that w/o having a vehicle in front of me I could not accurately provide this advice because I do not know where you can get at connectors most easily. Barring a defective valve or a catastrophic compressor failure, if your system holds air jumpering should get you out. That said, after reading JAK's post, maybe I'll throw a bit of air line, a couple of quick connects, and some Schrader valves in my toolbox as a last resort.
JAK, just as info: the IIDTool actually has better EAS functionality than the Faultmate due to the ability to reprogram the heights quickly front, rear, or all. All other functions are there: manual control of all valves and components in the EAS system, so pumping up the vehicle by manually controlling the valves and compressor is not an issue. The IIDTool is more or less on par with the Faultmate - despite its size, it is not a lesser system The Faultmate still has more CCF (car configuration file) options than the IIDTool (because our philosophy is to test each and every function before releasing SW if at all possible) and we have to resolve our ECU flashing procedures, but in terms of basic diagnostic functions, the Faultmate MSV no longer has any significant advantage. We'll be making some announcements regarding our products very soon.
I will be very interested in hearing what your problem was. The normal state of the air valves for the springs is closed - so I do not understand why you were not able to keep air in the bags once you had inflated them. I have def learned never to say never when it comes to automotive electronics, tho. My L322 RR was DOA for several hours several weeks ago due to a damp ECU that crashed the bus system. Not even a diagnostic system worked...
I run 275/65 18's on my RR. My philosophy when it comes to making the EAS failure-safe follows the KISS principle. I do not like the idea of adding Schrader valves and additional junctions to an otherwise intact system because it only increases the potential for leaks. I've always used jumper wires to run the compressor and pump the EAS up by manually switching the valves (tho I have to admit I've never had to do this on any other vehicle than my P38 RR. Got a lot of practice there, tho.). I was asked to follow up on this by someone here in the forum a year ago for the LR3 and post where the easiest spot to go to (to jumper) is and what pins / wires to jumper. I started to check wiring but realized that w/o having a vehicle in front of me I could not accurately provide this advice because I do not know where you can get at connectors most easily. Barring a defective valve or a catastrophic compressor failure, if your system holds air jumpering should get you out. That said, after reading JAK's post, maybe I'll throw a bit of air line, a couple of quick connects, and some Schrader valves in my toolbox as a last resort.
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Option 1: http://store.toddcosuspensions.com/larolr3diiii1.html
Option 2: http://www.roverpartswest.com/parts...OCKS & COMPONENTS&component=Air spring buffer
Option 1 at its extremes with worn bushings can lead to front upper control arm to air spring canister rubbing. I Recommend changing the bushings to Polys.
Option 2 simply places another snubber on the shock. This works but I found that the when the truck is fully loaded it tends to bounce more and the tires can still touch.
Good to know that the IID tool can do everything. Every time I reset the fault the truck would start to raise then the fault would trigger again and lower the truck. I was not able to keep air in the system. I believe this is the case when multiple faults are detected. While under the truck I could hear the rear air valve cycling. Not sure what was going on there. We use push to connect airlines all the time here at work and I am not worried about them leaking. There are DOT lines and fittings and that is what I am using now on the truck. The trick is to support the lines properly and prevent them from contacting adjacent structure that could cause them to wear through. I was always of the same KISS approach. After having this failure and the resulting amount of time and effort to get moving again, I'd rather have had the lines pre-installed. To get to the front valve block you have to remove the front right tire, wheel molding and splash guard. Mine was covered in mud and snow, not particularly fun. I could have disconnected the exhaust valve but that would have required dropping the rock slider. A particularly difficulty item to re install without a floor jack. Once you put the armor under the truck, access to connectors, compressor line etc become much more difficult to reach. I'd rather have the armor though.
I recommend a length of 6mm line and some quick disconnect unions as a minimum. This will let you bypass a broken line. I also kept a set of push to connect check valves in the truck. This keeps air from exhausting out if there is a stuck valve. This may have been the case with my fault as the rear dropped first with the front staying up. Temps were in the low 20's with plenty of snow under the truck, not sure if this had an effect. Once I resolve my fault I'll let everyone know what happened.
Here are some other resources for air suspension on the LR3, he has done a very thorough job, a great resource. http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3778
http://partsrover.com/index.php?pag..._id=21&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1&lang=en
$528.41 at current rates plus shipping and duties if it is available.
$528.41 at current rates plus shipping and duties if it is available.
SteveMfr
Supporting Sponsor
You do not need multiple faults - just one that the EAS ECU considers serious enough to 'hard fault' the vehicle and drop it to the bump stops.
In order to pump the vehicle up and drive it like this, you have to incapacitate the EAS ECU. In LR speak this is called 'Build Mode'. You then manually open valves to pump up the springs to whatever height you need. The EAS ECU will not react until you leave 'Build Mode'.
On the IIDTool this is part of the Service/Test functionality. We do not have a Faultmate and have never used one so I can't tell you where to look, but I would think that this included there as well (actually, you should be in build mode to control valves manually. JAK, could you check this - and see if you can get the vehicle to stay pumped up while remaining in build mode?).
So as far as making the EAS fail-safe: I still believe that permanently adding a system such as the Faskit is unnecessary (especially at that price!) and has a greater potential to create additional headaches than it does benefits. IMO, a good strategy would be:
1. to have a diagnostic tool capable of entering build mode and manually pumping up springs. If this does not work
2. manually pumping up the springs by disconnecting the EAS ECU connector and jumpering the correct terminals (which I will try to take a look at again and post). If this does not work
3. having quick connectors / air line / Schrader valves along to install (as a last resort. I still think having to go this far is unlikely).
Steve
Inside the faultmate PC software I have the option to open and close each valve individually.
This did not work. I have not confirmed yet, but I am narrowing in on a rear valve block failure, perhaps a stuck valve.
Your line item number 2 is interesting... Would this be done at the harness inside the car behind the glove box?
I will still be putting in a manual system for inflating. I have sourced the parts for around $150.00 from Global Industrial and McMaster-Carr. I will need to make my own bracket though.
My Schrader valve fix was my last resort. The only thing after that was a flatbed. I think that the moral of all of this is to have multiple options no matter what the failure is. This applies to everything. I try to have a bit of everything in the truck to fix who knows what. On the last Death Valley run by SCLR, a LR3 coolant bleed port was fixed with a balpoint pen.
I do have to confess though, while the break down was a pain, it does make things much more enjoyable afterwards. I have never come back from a trip talking about how perfect the run was. It is much more fun to talk about how we all nearly died while changing a tire on a Jeep while on 8000 foot shelf road with a steep 1500 foot drop with buzzards circling our heads. There is something special about sitting around the campfire and talking about how we restored an old Series III on the trail while holding off the barbarian horde.
Steve - for items #1 and #2 you suggest "manually pumping"? How do you manually pump them? Is there something in the IID tool that, when in build mode, allows you to initiate an inflation of one of the corners even when there is a hard fault?
Update:
never mind I get it now. Though I am interested in more details of your suggestion #2 and as Jak asked.
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SteveMfr
Supporting Sponsor
"Return under ECU control" would be leaving build mode. Just to be sure: you did not click this after pumping up the springs?
Can you post or PM the fault codes you had? If you had a valve stuck open, the EAS would react in strange ways. For instance, having the LR corner valve stuck open would mean that this spring inflates or deflates with all other springs under manual control. I have very little experience playing with the LR3 EAS, but (if I am not mistaken) with the ECU in build mode, even if a corner valve was stuck you would not be deflating. You need 2 valves to open to inflate (corner + reservoir valves) and 2 to deflate (corner + exhaust valve). So a single stuck corner valve would only mean that the spring pressure for that corner would enter into the otherwise closed off common gallery (also all LR terms, btw). So you would still not be deflating.
As I said: I am quite curious as to what your prob was.
Yes. Going by the wiring diags for the EAS, the only common spot for control of all items is the EAS ECU which makes this the logical spot to jumper (unless getting at the ECU connectors is extremely difficult - we'll have to try). We have to find the time to play so we can confirm that everything works as expected. As an example, though, jumpering pins 1+6+8 (+) and 7+21+24(gnd) on connector C2321 at the ECU should switch the compressor relay and the reservoir valve - so you'd be filling the reservoir completely manually as long as the pins are jumpered. I'll see if we can get some instructions and pics on this up sometime soon.
I think that your ability to jury-rig a solution and drive out is great. And your story will cause me to add quick connects / air line / and Schrader valves to my toolbox as a last resort. My personal opinion, tho, is still that the 2 options for manual inflation suffice for nearly every situation. And I still believe that the potential risks of permanently installing an "add-air" system such as the Faskit outweigh the potential gains. But that is just my opinion. You need to do whatever makes you worry less.
The adventure factor. If adventure factors start cumulating (severe weather, mechanical issues, etc) things start getting hairy. But the tales become even better.
To illustrate: check the second vid on this page. http://gap-diagnostic.com/video.html
This shows manual inflation and deflation of the front (both corner valves) on a Range Rover using the IIDTool BT (note the vehicle raising and lowering in the background). At 15sec you can see "Entering test mode" flash in the menu; this is build mode for full manual control of the EAS components. "Adjust front > Up" opens 3 valves simultaneously as long as the "up" button is held: the reservoir valve at the air tank and both front corner valves. You can do only one corner too, though. The functions for the non-BT IIDTool are the same.
We have a new app coming out, btw, designed for the iPad (and later Android tablets or PC / Mac via USB). We will make an official announcement in the coming days. There are some great new features coming...