Rubicon...Is it worth it?

[Robthebrit]

Not to hijack the thread but I have a pretty unique perspective on the manual/auto argument as my truck is effectively either. I can driver over an obstical as a stick shift, reverse and drive over it again as at auto!!

A stick will make you a better driver as you have another dimension of the vechicle control to deal with, however this additional level of control can get you in trouble by stalling in a really bad place. On the other hand with an auto its easy to mistake your ability for the capability of the truck as you effortlessly glide over steep obsticals without ever slipping a wheel. To make the required torqure to drive over a steep obstical with a gas engine you typically need high RPMs which and a stick puts you in a situation of high clutch wear and spinning wheels (your transfer case helps with this). In this same scenario the 3:1(maybe more) torque multiplication of the converter and the slippage allows for a lower engine RPM and no wheel slip. An automatic while driving offroad can easily get the tranny temperature light to come on as all that torque converter slippage generates a lot of heat, if you do a lot of driving on anything other than dirt roads you might want a tranny cooler and change your fluid more often. A stick in an diesel is a completely different beast and much easier to deal with.

Going downhill, the stick has an advantage, engine breaking is significantly reduced with a torque converter and in a small truck may not be effective at all. To get any engine breaking you typically have to shift to a lower gear which is a problem if you are already in the lowest gear. For me this is not a problem as A) I always have a lower gear B) I get pretty good engine breaking to start with as my torque converter is nearly 2 feet across C) I have an exhaust break and D) my converter locks up at 1600rpm so if I change to a low enough gear and get over 1600 rpms I get full engine breaking.

Not being able to handle a stick off road has the potential to damage the engine, for example accidently rolling back on a steep hill while in a too high forward gear and letting the clutch out, or you are already stalled, you start to roll back and you let the clutch out. Regardless of the setup you are trying to turn the engine over backwards and a lot of modern engines (and some old over head cam engines) will slip the timing and you'll be really stuck.

The mechanical reliability of a modern automatic is greater than a stick especially as the clutch in the stick shift ages. However, if a modern auto does break or goes into limp mode then you'll have problems getting it fixed in the middle of nowhere and you'll be driving home in 2nd gear! If you drive a stick to the middle of nowhere learn how to drive without the clutch just in case you need to.

Just my 2c, now back to the thread.

Rob

 

[Wanderlusty]

Rob,

Well, if the 'Mog wasn't cool enough as is....

Anyway, I am comfortable with the Manual on the trail, and like the extra control it gives. It is really just a matter if my wife will drive it much more if I get an auto. I would hate to get an auto for her sake, then her never drive it...

I can see where an auto could be nice, onroad and off. I know around town, the stick sure does kinda get old, but it is worth it for me.

I AM concerned about heat buildup in the auto, though...another reason why personally I favor the 6 speed.

And from what I have heard from JK owners and folks that have test driven both is that the stick makes it at least FEEL as if you are getting better throttle response.

This whole 'drive-by-wire' deal sounds as if it changes the driving experience a bit and that in itself will take some getting used to.

If there is one thing I am not too keen on in regards to the new JK it is all the techno-gadgetry that they added compared to the TJ.

That isn't enough to dissuade me, though...

 

[Scott Brady]

I run a manual in my Jeep because it makes the trails more challenging. For technical terrain, nothing beats an automatic for fine control and reduced drivetrain damage.

For an expedition rig, I would prefer a manual.

If I buy the JK, it will have the 6-speed.

I like a manual in my race trucks too.

 

[cshontz]

In regard to transmissions, I swing both ways. Automatics seem to be more common in Cherokees, so that's what I currently run. I don't mind it, except steep descents make me nervous with an automatic. :smiley_drive:

Seems like a tough call, David. Sounds like something to discuss over a romantic dinner for two. :ylsmoke:

:removeredX:

 

[Robthebrit]

It really is only something you (and your wife) can decide.

 

[goodtimes]

I run a manual in my Jeep because it makes the trails more challenging. For technical terrain, nothing beats an automatic for fine control and reduced drivetrain damage.

I must disagree. A manual transmission, backed with the appropriate gear ratios in both transfer case(s) and differentials will provide more control than an automatic....you just need to know what you are doing. The automatic is definately more forgiving, but with with the manual transmission you can control the link between engine and drivetrain, and thus you have a better ability to control wheel speed. The Automatic you have to use the brakes to fight the transmission to accomplish this, which leads to goofy things happening with certain suspension systems (4 link suspensions with poor geometry are the worst...).

For pure finesse, manual trans and deep gearing are the way to go. For user-friendlyness, automatics are better.... IMO of course. :safari-rig:

 

[Scott Brady]

I must disagree.

100% of competitive rock crawlers run automatic transmissions, which is done for fine control, minimal drivetrain wind-up (which leads to loss of traction) and reduced component failure due to the dampening affect of the torque converter. :ylsmoke:

But, manuals are way more fun :roost:

 

[articulate]

Odds are that I am still going to try my darndest to get the Rubi anyway, but I am not as convinced as before that it is worth the premium.

Am I not considering something? Agree? Disagree?

Dave, I gave a "Depends/Don't know," just to be helpful.

The X package isn't going to be disappointing, except you'll have to go get new tires right away ( ). Scotty and the boys have a good point about the lower t-case and factory lockers being installed by the manufacturer and covered with a nice warranty. It's good bang for the buck.

But if your buck isn't banging so well - as in your budget is tight - you're not selling yourself short by purchasing the X package. The t-case and lockers are expenive do-dads, but they are also gravy on a well-stacked plate. Luxuries, so to speak.

You asked, I gave. :beer:
Be well,
Mark

 

[Robthebrit]

I am a stick person too so I have no idea why I am arguing for an auto... However, wouldn't that same gear setup with an auto would give equally fine control, you should not need to use the brakes except to keep it still, there is no stalling to deal with and you get the torque multiplication for smooth climbing.

I think thats what Scott is getting at.

Rob

 

[goodtimes]

100% of competitive rock crawlers run automatic transmissions, which is done for fine control, minimal drivetrain wind-up (which leads to loss of traction) and reduced component failure due to the dampening affect of the torque converter. :ylsmoke:

But, manuals are way more fun :roost:

You are partially correct. They run automatics to save drivetrain components when they are hooked up to large displacement, no-muffler havin' engines which are used to get the croud worked up. Lots of tire spin, smoke, noise and carnage are used as advertisement. Another thing, the comp guys are usually running a manual valve body so they can start from a dead stop in whichever gear they want, very important with deep gearing and big vertical steps.

On the trail, I see more manual transmission buggies than I do automatics. I also see more small (4 cyl and v-6) engines than v-8s. If you want finesse, look at a linked/coil-overed buggy with a 22RE, 250:1 crawl ratio, manual transmission and sticky tires with about 4psi in them.

But I will agree that manuals are more fun too. :ylsmoke:

 

[crawler#976]

I have a slightly modded Toy that has lower gear ratios (roughly a 5.2:1) than a Rubicon. With a 5 speed, there are certain obsticals I dread because I know I've got to heal and toe on a rock face...definately exciting, but not THAT exciting.

If I ever build another hardcore trail rig, it will be an automatic with an ORD doubler - the NP203/205 setup.

Down hill decents can be too slow with deep gears - good example is the exit of Martinez Canyon. I started down in low/low first and had the tires start to slide due to the loose terrain - shifted to 3rd and regained control.

'Nuther thing about an auto vs stick - the torque converter is effectively doubling (or even tripling depending on the stall speed) your gear ratios. I've driven my bud's V8 CJ-7 Jeep over the same trail as my beater, and it "feels" very similar in many respects, and then again very different too.

One more item. With low gear sets and a manual it is possible to back drive a clutch past it's RPM rating. If for some strange reason you have to use the clutch on a steep decent and let the rig roll without braking, the clutch RPM gets too high real, real fast. In double low I can hit 5000 RPM at just over 5 MPH, so at 10 to 15 MPH the clutch could easily exceed 10000 to 15000 RPM. Without a scatter sheild, things could get interesting to say the least.

Anyway, I'd certainly take the Rubicon package - to me it would be like buying a Taco without the TRD package - why???

Mark

 

[Wanderlusty]

Dave, I gave a "Depends/Don't know," just to be helpful.

The X package isn't going to be disappointing, except you'll have to go get new tires right away ( ). Scotty and the boys have a good point about the lower t-case and factory lockers being installed by the manufacturer and covered with a nice warranty. It's good bang for the buck.

But if your buck isn't banging so well - as in your budget is tight - you're not selling yourself short by purchasing the X package. The t-case and lockers are expenive do-dads, but they are also gravy on a well-stacked plate. Luxuries, so to speak.

You asked, I gave. :beer:
Be well,
Mark

I hear you and hear you again. Since I currently drive a TJ "X" as I believe you do too, I sure know that they can do quite well for themselves.

Hence why I hesitate to just automatically jump for the Rubi, despite all it comes with.

And how well my "buck is banging" come GO time will probably be a big factor.

I just want to consider all the angles. I am looking for the JK to be the truck I settle down with. I would love for the TJ to be such, as I love it.

But it is a few feet too short to comply with the addition of a "3rd passenger" and all the associated gear. Heck, just him in there in the back seat now renders the passenger seat useless.

Once he switches to forward facing, at least we will have that back, but between all that and the negative yardage behind the seat that barely holds a first aid kit....hello JK-U!

Getting a JK is mostly a foregone conclusion. Now I just have to settle in on what fits best.

The fact that I want to 'settle down' with this next vehicle for a while...good argument for the Rubi...

See...back and forth, back and forth...both arguments have their merit.

I am digging the side-topic of Auto vs. Manual. As for me personally, as Rob said, that decision will be between me and the wife. I will get whatever I darned well....am allowed to get...

 

[4Rescue]

As far as I know the New JK Rubicons use AAM axles same maker as they used on the Powerwagon and the HD Rams... Those are ALOT nicer axles than 44's, either way if were talking about the new JK's, I'd say buy an older(pre 07) base unlimited (cause the new JK unlimited is ****in AWFUL imo) and build it to suit, it has the 4.0L not the 3.8 and you can put D44's or D60's under it if thet's what you're wanting... There are suposed to be ALOT of mechanical improvements made to the Rubi's for 07, but they unfortunately come in the new ****ty body style with the junk motor and no 2dr LWB option. As far as I'm concerned, the 2dr unlimited was the best Jeep ever made... that's my .02

 

[Scott Brady]

You are partially correct.

Just partially?

You don't think they run automatics for fine (infinite actually) control and to minimize drivetrain wind-up? I have been in competitive rock buggies as a ride along and between the cutting brakes (two), shifting the t-case and left foot braking I cannot imagine including a clutch in the equation and being competitive.

Honestly, I cannot think of one single advantage to a manual on technical terrain other than descending a hill.

I know that you like a manual Brian and so do I, and I am not trying to be argumentative either (as I have big time respect for your trail experience and knowledge), but I am just really struggling with how a manual would have any advantage on 4+ trails.

 

[upcruiser]

I'm a manual lover myself. One thing that almost deterred me from the 80 was the auto tranny. That said though, I actually really do enjoy the ease of use. In my 60 and my old CJ5, I had gotten myself into predicaments on several occasions, stalling on steep inclines (usually related to the oversized Webber being finicky in the 60) and when I was really trying to creep through rough terrain with the stock gears and 33's. In the 80 it couldn't be simpler and to me makes it alot easier to squeeze in the throttle gradually and avoid wheelspin. Still though, from a tactile point of you, I prefer driving with a manual, just feels like I have more control. In sports cars I'd never consider an auto. Once you master the art of heel and toe and left foot braking in a manual trannied car on the track, you really start having fun.