School me on home-defense (gun related).

[Jonathan Hanson]

Your wife probably had a run-in with the door prying type of criminal....not the "blow the doors off the hinges with a gun" kind of criminal. Her just standing at the door telling the guy to go away would probably have been enough . . .

Spence, that's two uses of "probably" in two sentences dealing with how my wife should have dealt with someone trying to break into her home. So if she had just presented herself at the window, unarmed, and asked him to go away, he "probably" would have?

I think your assumptions of criminal mentality are dangerously naive. You've already suggested that this guy, after jumping our wall, opening the side gate, and going through our tools, would "probably" have left if he hadn't found a convenient tool for prying a door. If he'd gotten through the door - say, because Roseann was in the shower at the time - and found her in her robe unarmed, would he "probably" have left if she screamed?

This thread is about home security. One of the issues we've been neglecting is the opportunities we have to convince people such as our subject here that breaking into houses is a bad idea, and likely to lead to an early demise. One of the ways to do that is to meet attempted break-ins with decisive and threatening action, not mere shouts or flashing lights. Your door pryer will soon become a door kicker if he experiences nothing but blinking chandeliers and yelling homeowners on his excursions.

 

[spencyg]

I guess all I have to say is that I'm glad I don't live in Tuscon....best wishes in your attemps to defend your fortress against the masses.

Spence

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

It's Tucson. And I guess all I have to say is, good luck using sarcasm to defend your fortress against the masses.

 

[Superu]

Her just standing at the door telling the guy to go away would probably have been enough....the pointed handgun just drove the point home.

I would argue the pointed handgun tipped the playing field to her advantage. Police on the way, perp attempting to enter residence, appropriate defensive posture called for. The perp seeing an unarmed woman at the door would likely feel much less inclined to re-think his actions than if he were facing the barrel of a gun. I'm just sayin...:ylsmoke:

Woman looking through door.

Woman looking through door with gun.

 

[spencyg]

My sarcasm and a healthy dose of common sense has proven very successful in keeping myself and my family safe.

Spence

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

Okay . . .

I'll tell Roseann that if she'd had more common sense, that incident wouldn't have happened.

Sorry, Spence - I'm not trying to pick on you. But if you think passive measures are all it takes to keep you safe, I think you're being extremely naive, it's that simple.

 

[spencyg]

...and if you think that just owning a gun makes you safe, than I suppose we're both in for a surprise.

I'll take my well secured house and a cell phone any day over a poorly secured house and a gun. My house ensures that for 99.9% of the potential incidents, the criminal will move on to an easier target whether I'm home or not. Your gun ensures lots of police, questions, courts, and potential harm to your family in the potential event of misuse...and this is only when you're home. When you're not home, that gun isn't doing anything but getting stolen and used against some other innocent (or not so innocent), or worse. You say potato, I say carrot. We won't agree and will just end up being offensive or offended.

This type of conversation keeps looping around and bouncing off different life perspectives and points of view. Nobody ends up with a changed mind and typically just ends in spiteful feelings. I'm not exactly sure why the moderators didn't keep this one in the trash can, as it has nothing to do with the life of a traveler and the entire purpose of Expo, off topic or otherwise.

We don't want to be at home anyway...we'd all rather be travelling!!

Spence

 

[Cackalak Han]

Well, I knew it would revert back to the whole gun issue. I will just say that there is no way to predict what a criminal mind will do. You have to remember that some have no sense of reasoning at all. Think of the shootings at high schools, the Amish girls murder, Virginia Tech, Trolley Square. None of those victims had any chance to reason with those lunatics. They screamed, though that they were in relatively safe places, but that didn't matter.

My whole point of this thread is to protect my family against those idiots. Petty thieves who want to steal my TV, jewlry, etc., I'm not that worried about. It's the mental, crazy, drugged up lunatics that got me thinking. I think all of you bring up good points. Make the premises less desireable (ie putting tools an equipment away), layer of security, and source of deadly force (gun). Thanks again for the inputs.

 

[BIGdaddy]

Well, I knew it would revert back to the whole gun issue. I will just say that there is no way to predict what a criminal mind will do. You have to remember that some have no sense of reasoning at all. Think of the shootings at high schools, the Amish girls murder, Virginia Tech, Trolley Square. None of those victims had any chance to reason with those lunatics. They screamed, though that they were in relatively safe places, but that didn't matter.

My whole point of this thread is to protect my family against those idiots. Petty thieves who want to steal my TV, jewlry, etc., I'm not that worried about. It's the mental, crazy, drugged up lunatics that got me thinking.

yup. and i think you can see that a lot of us think similarly

This thread is for your benefit and if you've taken it all in I'd say we'd probably do well to toss it.

Spense is right, it'll go round and round pulling more gunners and anti-gunners from the woodwork...

 

[Fergie]

When you're not home, that gun isn't doing anything but getting stolen and used against some other innocent (or not so innocent), or worse.
Spence

Spency,

For a good amount of people, that gun stays with them 100% of the time. For a good amount of people, guns that are not in use, and stored in the home, are secured in a very large, heavy, bolted down gun safe. And, most gun owners will register their serials with someone like an insurance agent, and if a theft happens, they report the serials to the police.

I won't comment on your views specifically, aside from saying that they are your's, I respect your right to have them, won't try to change your mind on them, and expect the same from you on mine. I don't criticize them either, and expect that as well.

Cackalack,

Once you have become proficient in target shooting with your gun, invest in a good defensive shooting class, something that cover close quarters shooting. Gunsite and Frontsite are two that are close to us here, you should have the equivalent in your area.

For any that are interested, read this aritcle:

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

Well, I knew it would revert back to the whole gun issue. I will just say that there is no way to predict what a criminal mind will do. You have to remember that some have no sense of reasoning at all. Think of the shootings at high schools, the Amish girls murder, Virginia Tech, Trolley Square. None of those victims had any chance to reason with those lunatics. They screamed, though that they were in relatively safe places, but that didn't matter.

My whole point of this thread is to protect my family against those idiots. Petty thieves who want to steal my TV, jewlry, etc., I'm not that worried about. It's the mental, crazy, drugged up lunatics that got me thinking. I think all of you bring up good points. Make the premises less desireable (ie putting tools an equipment away), layer of security, and source of deadly force (gun). Thanks again for the inputs.

You've obviously picked out the good advice from amongst the mere arguments. Your approach is a thoughtful one, which means you'll make the right decisions. Good luck.

 

[Dave Bennett]

I refuse to succumb to a Maginot mentality that assumes it's my responsibility to lock myself in my house, light up the yard with 5,000 watts, not have screwdrivers accessible in the side yard, plaster alarm stickers on every window, play a tape recording of a barking dog, have randomly programmed lights turning off and on, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Maginot mentality... Good one! I like that analogy :clapsmile

I refuse to live in fear.

 

[goodtimes]

...
I'll take my well secured house and a cell phone any day over a poorly secured house and a gun. My house ensures that for 99.9% of the potential incidents, the criminal will move on to an easier target whether I'm home or not.
...
Spence

So let me ask, what happens when confronted with that .1%? I'm serious. I know what my solution is, but I'm curious what yours is.

You (anyone) take all the precautions. You lock it down. You have dogs. You have a cell phone with 9-1-1 set up on speed dial. You have security cameras, you have perimeter lighting and warning systems, you have bars on the windows, you have steel main doors behind steel security doors, you have an alarm system administered by a company that provides an armed response . . .

What do you do when that .1% comes through all of that. What do you do when your wife's screaming doesn't stop them, when your dogs don't deter them. What is your *last* line of defense?

That last line is where the firearms come into play. All that other stuff is great. You are absolutely correct in saying that it will deter a vast majority of opportunistic crack-heads and petty thieves, and if you can manage to deter them, everyone is better off -- I truly believe that.

But simply ignoring the fact that all those great ideas and prevention efforts will still fail to deter *every* person intent on doing you harm, is dangerous. It is dangerous to you, it is dangerous to your family.

I don't think anyone here is seriously advocating leaving the doors and windows standing open while hoping someone comes in so they are justified in shooting them. I don't think anyone (in their right mind) views lethal force as the first and only line of defense. But it is certainly an effective last line of defense.

I would rather have my girlfriend respond in the manner that Roseann did, than in a less assertive way. Roseann communicated to the would-be thief/possible rapist or murderer, in a very clear manner, that he was about to bring a screwdriver to a gunfight. She gave him the chance to reconsider his position, and he made the right choice. No one died. No one was injured. The gun did its job. Would a lesser weapon (knife, baseball bat, etc) have been as effective? Maybe. Maybe not.

But do you (anyone) want to take that chance? Remember, all the other measures have already failed, it is you (or your family) face to face with someone who has already demonstrated that they don't give a rats butt about the law. What is your last line of defense? Was it the cell phone call to 9-1-1 which police are still 3 minutes away from responding to? Was it the steel door that the criminal kicked in (because steel doors are commonly hung on wooden jams that provide no added protection)? Was it the dog that the criminal just killed on their way to your kids bedroom?

Reality check. The chances of being in that situation are probably better than a million to one (pulling that number out of the air). But the chance is still there. You can either ignore it, accept that you will be unprepared for it when/if it happens, or you can plan for it. The choice is yours. Everyone makes that choice for themselves. Not everyone is going to make the same choice, and there is nothing wrong with that. We all deal with things a little differently.

My choice involves a .45 acp. What does your choice involve?

 

[Superu]

I'll just add one thought here.

It's not always a single intruder. They sometimes work in pairs and that's where the firearm gives you a significant advantage over any other hand held combat weapon.

Some other points to consider: Does your wife shoot? Is she comfortable handling/firing guns? Can she handle the kick of a 12ga or is a 20ga or .410 a better choice? Not to try to spook you, but you may not always be home if a situation arises and no weapon is going to do any good if she is afraid, unwilling or unable to use it.

Also, a good pump action is generally considered to be extremely reliable, but a solid auto loader like a 930 SPX takes even less effort to get off the second shot if it's needed and they've proven to be very reliable.

 

[spencyg]

What do you do when that .1% comes through all of that.

I live in Maine. Did I mention that earlier?

My wife is incredably anti-gun, so this is all a moot discussion for my household anyway.

That being the case, my opinions are my opinions...not necessarily those of even my wife, not to mention my brother who is in the marines, or my dad who is an avid hunter.

That being said, I am unwilling to allow the fear of a million-to-one situation dictate the way I live my life or control my decisions. Not to sidetrack too much, but this factor of fear is what our society seems to be driven by. Fear of losing your job. Fear of a terrorist attack. Fear of bears. Fear of child abduction. God damn it people...the world is really not that bad of a place. Sure, you can PUT yourself in a bad position by not taking the correct precautions, but for bad things to just happen by chance isn't something that has ever happened to me or anybody I know. Maybe this is just due to my physical location. If that's the case, then all the more reason to live where I live.

Fear will tear you apart. If you're scared about somebody breaking into your house during the night, than you're probably scared about taking a walk at night to see the stars. If you REALLY live in a place as dangerous as some people here are suggesting, than move! There are still safe places in the country which still allows a good quality of living without being worried about who is going to try and break into your house, rape your wife, and steal your kids.

If on the other hand you're coming up with all of these stories and hypothetical situations just to justify owning a gun for the sole purpose of eventually having to blow somebody's brains out....well....

I have called the police once at my new house due to an incessantly barking dog across the street at 2:00 in the morning. They were there in 2 minutes. I accidently triggered a police call when I inadvertantly dialed 911 by accident when I lived up north.....6 miles out of town. The police were there in 4 minutes.

Between the locks, the lights, the dog, and a baseball bat, I've got 2 minutes of time.

-Good house security
-Cell Phone

It is all I'll ever have.

Spence