Volkswagen Vanagon 4x4 Conversion.

[Metcalf]

This would likely be the simplest path forward but I would like to explore having a profile cut from some flat stock that would be keyed so it all interlocked together and would be welded.
This would result in a 1.5 inch square tie rod with a wall thickness of my choosing that would have the step in the middle to clear the pinion.
Of course this means I would have to buy one of those adjusters for both ends if I want everything to be nice and centered.

How about just having the shape you need profile cut out of a bar of material on a waterjet? It would be a square solid profile, but if you did something like 1.125-1.25" thick 7075T6 aluminum it would still be light enough.
If you only need a bit of offset you could just use bar stock for the base material instead of plate...much cheaper. A good waterjet place should be able to work with that.
Tapping the ends would be a little tricky but not impossible. Tap one side for the TRE threads you need. Tap the other side for the inner double adjuster part. Try and use the same tie rod on both sides for a common spare part number.

 

[vwhammer]

This has also crossed my mind. I actually have a piece of 1.5 square 7075 in the shop that I could just machine the relief out of, much like your round bar idea, tap the ends and call it done. Not super sure about an aluminum tie rod though.
I know 7075 is strong and I have worked with it before but it just does not seem like the right choice of material.

 

[luthj]

This has also crossed my mind. I actually have a piece of 1.5 square 7075 in the shop that I could just machine the relief out of, much like your round bar idea, tap the ends and call it done. Not super sure about an aluminum tie rod though.
I know 7075 is strong and I have worked with it before but it just does not seem like the right choice of material.

7075 can be as strong as steel when heat treated. It is not very corrosion resistant compared to other aluminum alloys, so a good coating is required.

7075 is not as tough as steel, even though it will have similar ultimate tensile/compressive strength. This it probably not an issue with a properly sized bar.

Aluminum is much more prone to fatigue cracking than steel, but with a correctly sized 7075 bar (T6 temper) the fatigue risk is minimal.

Race cars often use aluimum in similar applications, so obviously it is not a ridiculous proposition. The biggest issue is bucking of the bar under compression. Using a profile with a larger moment in bending will remove this risk (Think larger OD if using tubing).

 

[Metcalf]

This has also crossed my mind. I actually have a piece of 1.5 square 7075 in the shop that I could just machine the relief out of, much like your round bar idea, tap the ends and call it done. Not super sure about an aluminum tie rod though.
I know 7075 is strong and I have worked with it before but it just does not seem like the right choice of material.

7075T6 is used fairly commonly in rock crawling and/or rock racing circles for steering and suspension links.
It has the ability to hold up to a lot of abuse, way more than anything expo driven is going to see. It has a lot of 'memory' with an uncanny ability to return to its original shape.
I wouldn't hesitate to use it after seeing the abuse it till take.....cost is usually the driving issue....not cheap

The only things that might work 'better' in my experience is heat treated chromoly steel type links. Heat treated AFTER any welding. That is typically even more expensive/complex than 7075T6 as far as manufacturing.

Examples...

http://rpmfab.com/JK-Aluminum-Tie-Rod-and-Drag-Link-Steering-Flip-Kit_p_13.html
http://www.wideopendesign.com/Product/11145/7075-T6-Aluminum-Links.aspx

 

[vwhammer]

Well after checking my bar in the garage it is actually only 6061 so that rules that out.

A flat of 7075 in the length, width and thickness I would need is about $265.

This particular piece of my puzzle should not cost that much so I am going to explore some of the other options.

In other news I did not do as much physical work on the van as I had anticipated this week.

I spent most of my time working on my radius arm design and getting a start on the R&D phase of my trans output reverser.
These parts are going to take some time so I figured I had better get started so they can be processed while working on other things.

EDIT: The reverser was cost prohibitive so I removed info about it from the post. END EDIT

There is a whirlwind of activity just none of the exciting stuff that make for a good build thread.
However it is all necessary to make a production quality part.

But man once those parts start rolling in it should come together pretty quickly.

I also have a friend that is turning all of my 2D drawings into 3D drawings that he will then assemble.
You will then see what it all looks like assembled off the van.
Well unless I get to the actual real assembly before then.

Until next time.

 

[philos]

Plenty exciting for me...


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[mgmetalworks]

Curious about the costs of the custom gear cutting you're doing. Have any ballpark figures for the gears you're about to do with your project?

 

[vwhammer]

I talked to the place yesterday and they had a flat rate of about $1500 just for the CMM process.
This included detailed measurements and transfer to the 2D and 3D drawing files of my choice.

However once I mentioned that I would likely be having the gear made there as well after I modify the drawings they mentioned either dropping the $1500 completely or drastically reducing it depending on how many of what type and size of gear I was having made.

He asked if I could send pics with a size reference and he could work up a rough quote for the CMM service and gear manufacture.
I just did this yesterday evening so I don't expect to hear back until next week.

So to make a long story short (which is pointless now that I have typed the long version) I don't know yet.

I am hoping it will be well under $1000 but I suspect it will be much more.
Of course this is all based on having one gear made for prototype purposes and probably won't be too bad in some real quantity.

 

[Metcalf]

Going back to the flipping the diff thing mentioned early on....

What about running a flipped low pinion in front ( to make a high pinion which should be driving on the right side of the tooth and help clear the FJ80 steering system ), then run a flipped high pinion in the rear ( to make a low pinion which again should be on the correct side of the tooth)?

I believe you wanted to just run 8" toyota stuff? Buying both versions is very possible, and you already have at least one right?

Taking a step back and looking at a simple solution might be worth it when faced with the cost of custom gear cutting AND the associated complexity.
If you where ever to break those parts you are up a creek pretty much.
I like to keep things mostly an interesting combination of junkyard parts so that replacements can be found in the future.

Cheers.

 

[vwhammer]

Metcalf,
You may be responding to a post that got deleted because of a cell phone service issue I was having while typing it or you are clairvoyant.

For those without the gift allow me to enlighten you.

I spoke with the gear vendors that I hoped could whip me up a gear on the cheap.
It turns out it is going to run me $6k for two finished gears and the CMM service I requested.
That's a no-go.

So I am now resorting BACK to plan "A" which, as Metcalf nailed, is flipping the diffs in the housing.

I will be running the front, high pinion, reverse cut Land cruiser diff in the rear which solves the drive side VS coast side issue.
I will then be running a 3rd gen 4 Runner locking rear diff in the front and this will also be driven on the correct side because all of my driveshafts will be turning the opposite direction compared to a typical front engine 4x4.

I thought about it all weekend while waiting on the gear vendor quote and realized, once again as Metcalf mentioned, why spend a lot of money on what essentially is an extra part?

I have a method to make the thing go the right direction using the factory parts in the way that they were intended so why not roll with it.

Going the plan "A" route will also allow the use of any front engine rear drive combo that you are willing to squeeze in the back.

The main issue that I am having at the moment is that I will not be running land cruiser axle parts because no one makes a 100% new land cruiser front housing.

I am going to go ahead and get a toyota truck based front housing made since that is what will be used in the finished design.
No point in building all the steering with the rear mounted tie rod when the finished piece will be a front mount tie rod.

Of course the stock toyota truck parts are not as strong as the Land cruiser parts but I can solve that by getting some chromoly 30 spline birfields and axle shafts so I am not too worried.

Yes I know, the likelihood of finding chromoly 30 spline toyota birfs and axle parts if you break one in the middle of Siberia is pretty slim but if you break one of these bad boys doing anything but rock crawling then saying you are hard on vehicles would be an understatement.

Anyway for now I am carrying on with my rear axle build as I had planned with all the chopped up land cruiser bits.
For the front I am now searching for a plain old Toyota truck front axle so I can scrounge the steering balls from it and ship them off to a housing builder that can fab the housing and weld them on.

Ideally I would like to go with the trail gear housing because to me it appears the most "production" looking axle and they have new front steering balls available for their axles.

At the moment they are having issues with the diff flip part because, if you look at their housings it not as simple as flipping the whole housing over and welding the balls on.
They would have to machine a new diff mount plate with the bolt pattern flipped then weld it all up.

I am communicating with them now to see if they might be able to assist me with the initial housing so I can have the proper 100% new housing in hand from the get go.

 

[bknudtsen]

Any issues with oil starvation at the pinion when you flip a low pinion axle? I know that high pinion housings typically have an oil slinger or something to make sure the bearings get enough lube.

 

[vwhammer]

Yes there are some issues.
The 4Runner rear diff I will be running does have an oil slinger according to diagrams but it is up in the pinion housing near the driveshaft flange.
Seems like a weird place to put it to me but I'm no Toyota engineer.
From the looks of it it may just be to keep an excess of oil from pooling up against the seal and leaking all the time while simultaneously flinging the oil back at the pinion bearing.

Anyway the diffs will still be rotating the proper direction so the slinger should still work provided I can actually get oil to it.
It does help that I have rotated the diff down so the pinion angle is zero so that will help.
A little over fill of the diff oil will likely do the trick.
I will look at it more once I get the parts but I am sure I can sort something out.

 

[Metcalf]

I think it would be possible to retrofit some of the high pinion oiling parts into the low pinion housing. One would just need to compare everything between the two and pick what parts you need where. Any differences in thicknesses for different parts like the oil retainer or slinger can be accounted for in the setup.

Have you talked with Brian at Diamond axle ( Front Range Offroad Fabrication )? He knows toyota stuff and has been building toyota housings for a long time now.

The only thing that is really much stronger in the 80-series front axle are the Birfields. They are still limited to a 30 spline shaft. A good quality 30 spline allow shaft will take you a long ways. The big bonus to the 80 series axle is the width.

What axle width are you wanting to run ideally?

 

[Backcountry Pursuit]

The talent and cumulative experience on this forum is astonishing. Logging in has been the favorite part of my day for months now. You all give me the motivation to dig in and attempt things I have never done before. Even though for the truely gifted fabricators and mechanics, the things I will accomplish with my van are trivial, they will be huge milestones in my ameteur mechanical portfolio. Not that I am starting from square one, but threads like this bolster my confidence to jump to square five and square six. Keep doing the amazing things that you are doing and you will continue to push folks like me to do great things as well.

 

[vwhammer]

I think it would be possible to retrofit some of the high pinion oiling parts into the low pinion housing. One would just need to compare everything between the two and pick what parts you need where. Any differences in thicknesses for different parts like the oil retainer or slinger can be accounted for in the setup.

Have you talked with Brian at Diamond axle ( Front Range Offroad Fabrication )? He knows toyota stuff and has been building toyota housings for a long time now.

The only thing that is really much stronger in the 80-series front axle are the Birfields. They are still limited to a 30 spline shaft. A good quality 30 spline allow shaft will take you a long ways. The big bonus to the 80 series axle is the width.

What axle width are you wanting to run ideally?

Diamond is the only housing manufacturer that I have not talked with at this point.

I have no doubts that all the parts exist to make this work. It's just a matter of tracking them all down.

After reading a lot about the aftermarket smaller birfs and shafts I have no doubts that they will be a suitable replacement for the bigger land cruiser parts.
Also, as it turns out, the land cruiser only has 24 splines on the birfield end of the inner shafts.
Beyond that I also felt that the cruiser brakes might have been a little better than the truck parts but there are a couple upgrades for that as well.
Brakes are sort of my thing so I know I can come up with something there.
I did buy a whole pile of new land cruiser brake parts so it would be nice if I could use them some how.

The factory 80 series axle width is just about perfect for my build so I will be having the housings build to that spec.
The front is 63.5" wms to wms.
The rear is 63 but for the sake of consistency I am thinking about making them both 63.5.