2020 Defender Spy Shots....

[mpinco]

.......Also, the new Jeep sat the NCAP tests and got 1 star. Out of 5. Because the car, at 30mph crushes into the cabin and injures the occupants. Which for a modern car is quite an achievement.

This new model to me sits as a happy half house from a defender and a Discovery 4.
Which is why myself and other discovery owners are excited as it could be an ideal replacement for current models in time.

Reference point - Have a D1, RRC and a LR4. The new Defender appears to be a smaller LR4 with maybe better technology and newer powertrain. Is it better? We shall see. The new Discovery is a virtual failure as monthly sales numbers are very low. LR is trying to move that model to a new niche and that takes time.

As for the new Jeep NCAP test, I've said this before, Jeep owners rank safety test at the bottom of the feature list. They are looking for a fun vehicle that can be stripped of doors and accessorized. Think large tires, open convertible-like configs and lots of sun. They are not looking for what some government weenie tells them they should be driving.

 

[Scott Brady]

I made some performance notes on the new video by the timeline. There are some interesting revelations clearly demonstrated in the footage.

The Best Defender Tease Video Yet! - Expedition Portal

Many of us are anxiously awaiting the launch of the new 2020 Defender, and this compilation video is the most revealing and exciting one yet. It shows some critical insights, including what are clearly 18-inch wheels over a smaller brake package, long-travel independent suspension, and...

expeditionportal.com

My notes:

For vehicle dynamics, there is a clear demonstration of not only advanced and highly tuned traction control, but stability control as well, with limited (or even driver-selectable) intervention as shown in the higher speed clips, and on the ice and snow, the Defender exhibiting significant step out and sustained drifting. On the sand, individual wheelspeed rates are highly varied (at :11 and :15 seconds) , which shows their intention towards performance in that environment and limited TC intervention in sand mode. The audible note from the engine in the opening scene hints at a larger displacement gasoline engine with good output.

The suspension demonstrates good control and predictability on both the pavement and in the dirt, the body staying flat during high-speed, dynamic cornering, and proper damping tuning for compression and rebound managing the weight of both the 90 and 110 chassis and reciprocating mass under higher cycling rates on the dirt. This should result in minimal head toss and good control for most overland conditions. At :12 seconds, it shows a large input event, with full compression to the jounce and proper rebound control. That clip also clearly reveals the diameter of the wheel and the small brake discs. Maybe (just maybe) a 17 inch wheel will be possible with minor modifications or a custom casting. The water depth at :25 seconds is a positive indicator of not only fording capability, but Land Rover’s willingness to promote it. Also unusual for a manufacturer is to show a jump, as they do at :34 seconds, with the 110 leaving the pavement by a foot. Despite all of these details, what is most telling is Land Rovers clear intention with the vehicle, all of the footage showing high speeds, dynamic inputs, drifting, technical terrain, deep water, deep snow, and deep mud.

 

[A.J.M]

As for the new Jeep NCAP test, I've said this before, Jeep owners rank safety test at the bottom of the feature list. They are looking for a fun vehicle that can be stripped of doors and accessorized. Think large tires, open convertible-like configs and lots of sun. They are not looking for what some government weenie tells them they should be driving.

That’s all well and lovely.

But why can’t you enjoy all that without suffering the risk of a broken leg in a 30mph crash because the car crumpled like a biscuit.
No matter how you dress it up. That’s not good enough from what is a newly redesigned model.

 

[mpinco]

That’s all well and lovely.

But why can’t you enjoy all that without suffering the risk of a broken leg in a 30mph crash because the car crumpled like a biscuit.
No matter how you dress it up. That’s not good enough from what is a newly redesigned model.

Every design is a list of compromises and trade-offs. Jeep has stayed true to the buyer's use cases which includes no doors, convertible and bikinis.

How many Jeeps are sold vs how many D5's?

In the US market an average of 23,000 Jeep Wrangler's are sold each month. Land Rover Discovery is selling at roughly 570 D5's per month.

The industry can sell only so many jelly-beans before there comes a time for consolidation of those who sell jelly-beans. The dealers are already screaming they don't need anymore jelly-beans. (SUV/CUV/....)

 

[REDROVER]

@blackangie
You don’t like when some of us point out it’s flaws, it’s fine keep advertising,
it may work where you live, but in big beautiful western USA, ur facts are as good as hot air.

market is the best reality judge.

 

[A.J.M]

Every design is a list of compromises and trade-offs. Jeep has stayed true to the buyer's use cases which includes no doors, convertible and bikinis.

How many Jeeps are sold vs how many D5's?

The industry can sell only so many jelly-beans before there comes a time for consolidation of those who sell jelly-beans. The dealers are already screaming they don't need anymore jelly-beans. (SUV/CUV/....)

Again.
Why can’t they do that without it crumpling in on the passenger cabin?
Couldn’t they make the frame and basic body shell a little bit tougher so you don’t end up with a brake pedal though the shin bone in a bump in town.

Not comparing Jeep to D5. Totally different markets and prices.
I will happily say the D5 has pushed too high and too near the L405 for many people to consider it.

Here in the U.K., the base model D5 compared to the base model D4 is a jump of nearly £12,000 for same 3.0 engine.
That’s a jump too far for many.

Hence the look for the Defender as that possible replacement.

 

[Blaise]

Look up your ratings and derate by 20% and then derate again for altitude.

I'll pass on 2.0-liter ........

Turbocharged engines are not affected by altitude.

 

[mpinco]

Turbocharged engines are not affected by altitude.

Yes and no. Total pressure seen in a cylinder is compression ratio + boost, both over atmospheric pressure. Without variable vane the total boost is over the atmospheric pressure which is -20% at 6,000 ft. With variable vane the turbo can be spun faster to somewhat compensate for altitude (MAF reading) but there are limits to the turbo the manufacturer used. So the answer is ......... it depends. Automotive turbo's are not the same as aviation turbo's.

 

[mpinco]

Again.
Why can’t they do that without it crumpling in on the passenger cabin?.........

I will happily say the D5 has pushed too high and too near the L405 for many people to consider it...........

Here in the U.K., the base model D5 compared to the base model D4 is a jump of nearly £12,000 for same 3.0 engine.
........Hence the look for the Defender as that possible replacement.

- As long as the overall market appeal is not violated NCAP 'might' be able to be increased. I suspect the overall design, which is a positive selling point, would need to be changed and that is not an option for a vehicle selling 23,000 per month.

- The D5 also lost some of the LR attributes and virtually became a minivan. The 'design language' got in the way of market appeal. They all look the same.

- Agreed a jump of £12,000 to the D5 is too much, especially when you consider the loss of LR attributes. As I noted before the D5 became a piece of furniture vs passion. Which by the way is why Jeep volumes are so high - passion.

- I have this bad feeling about the Defender and the price point. If the D5 is any indication of where LR is going relative to value it could be a real model killer, as in not enough volume.

 

[Blaise]

^^^ YEP. My lady laughs every time we see a D5. How is that a Land Rover? Rovers are supposed to look boxy and cool! Instead they blend in.... sigh. Definitely cut me out of their prospective buyers. Guess I'll need to find a '16 LR4...

Yes and no. Total pressure seen in a cylinder is compression ratio + boost, both over atmospheric pressure. Without variable vane the total boost is over the atmospheric pressure which is -20% at 6,000 ft. With variable vane the turbo can be spun faster to somewhat compensate for altitude (MAF reading) but there are limits to the turbo the manufacturer used. So the answer is ......... it depends. Automotive turbo's are not the same as aviation turbo's.

We are both wrong and right on different things

Vane variation is for changing the AR ratio in the turbocharger for optimal performance throughout the flow range of the housing. It does not impact turbine speed.

My oversight: You are correct that there is a total cylinder compression to adjust for, which lets assume is not taken care of by modern engine control (it might be, I am not sure). Turbine speed is not instrumented or controllable in any turbocharger system I know of, so turbine speed will increase relative to altitude to maintain the same positive pressure.

Assuming 1bar positive turbine pressure (conservative), and going to 6k like you suggested:

14.7 turbo pressure + 14.7psi (atmospheric pressure) = 29.4psi total.
14.7 turbo pressure + 11.4psi (atmospheric pressure) = 26.1psi total.

100-(26.1/29.4*100) = 12% drop, not 20%. However modern vehicles operate closer to ~25psi which would make this drop significantly less.

Aviation turbochargers are only different from the ones we use in our vehicles in that we do not operate in nearly as large of an RPM range for prop-powered aircraft as with our vehicles. Thus the lack of a need for a variable vane.

Regardless, I don't think it's fair to continue to beat on the modern smaller turbocharged engines. Technology has advanced and with that we no longer need 6 liters to drive around. I drove a 2.0T JL recently and it was great.

 

[calicamper]

Reference point - Have a D1, RRC and a LR4. The new Defender appears to be a smaller LR4 with maybe better technology and newer powertrain. Is it better? We shall see. The new Discovery is a virtual failure as monthly sales numbers are very low. LR is trying to move that model to a new niche and that takes time.

As for the new Jeep NCAP test, I've said this before, Jeep owners rank safety test at the bottom of the feature list. They are looking for a fun vehicle that can be stripped of doors and accessorized. Think large tires, open convertible-like configs and lots of sun. They are not looking for what some government weenie tells them they should be driving.

It is smaller sorta L4-3 ish. Which is probably why you don’t see them much other than leased LA status symbol etc. The 4Dr Wrangler offers more space and thats not really saying much.

I just looked at the 2020 Explorer/ Aviator not a 4x4 rig but just as a reference the 2020 Explorer is not a SUV or even trying to pretend to be one anymore. It has a very cramped cabin feel, rear hatch opening is near exactly the same size as my old Subaru Outback the new 2020 Outback is actually bigger hatch opening. To even further push it into large heavy sport wagon territory the dealer had a bunch of them non had 2nd row bench seating. Sales managers saw my disappointment, disbelief and basically total disappointment and topped it off saying he doubted he would see more than 1 bench 2nd row all year.

Guys I hate to say it but the mid sized SUV that can fit lots of gear, haul people and fit in tight parking lots or do tight trails is going extinct. Soon we’ll have nothing but jeeps or big 4 seater heavy sport wagons. ?‍♂️

I’m pretty bummed out.

Just looked at the Telluride its far better in practical interior space rear hatch opening is 2 inches taller.

Comparison numbers
2010 Subaru Outback rear hatch load opening 29 1/4 inches, 2020 is larger but not sure by how much.
2020 Aviator/Explorer just barely 30 inches and barely 8inches of ground clearance, very tight snug cockpit like seating format. Ie no wife doing work on laptop during road trips like done in the Subaru or Sequoia.

2020 Telluride 32 inches, roomy seating yes laptop work can commence?

For kicks 2006 Sequoia 39inches rear hatch load height. Floor to hard stop roof trim height.

Gear loading space matters to all of us the modern stuff with the flip down 3rd rows eat up 8-10 inches of load floor to hatch trim height.

 

[mpinco]

We are both wrong and right on different things ...........

Thanks for the work! I figured the answer was somewhere in between. Agreed modern turbochargers are well advanced and the days of very large displacement engines is over. But .... 2.0L is too small for towing at altitude and while you will not be crawling you will be the driver who gets glares as you are not able to maintain speed. There is another issue that many don't realize, that with small engines the driver has a tendency to "put their foot into it more" to compensate for lower power production. Fuel mileage then falls off rapidly. With a larger displacement engine you just cruise along within the ideal operating band and fuel mileage can actually be really good. It's all about staying within the ideal power band and with small displacement engines you just can't maintain speed and have to run at higher rpm's, hence 10 speed gear boxes.

 

[calicamper]

Thanks for the work! I figured the answer was somewhere in between. Agreed modern turbochargers are well advanced and the days of very large displacement engines is over. But .... 2.0L is too small for towing at altitude and while you will not be crawling you will be the driver who gets glares as you are not able to maintain speed. There is another issue that many don't realize, that with small engines the driver has a tendency to "put their foot into it more" to compensate for lower power production. Fuel mileage then falls off rapidly. With a larger displacement engine you just cruise along within the ideal operating band and fuel mileage can actually be really good. It's all about staying within the ideal power band and with small displacement engines you just can't maintain speed and have to run at higher rpm's, hence 10 speed gear boxes.

I drove the Ford 2.3L and own the 4.7L v8 Sequoia first gen. I had doubts but it doesn’t matter much about cylinders and displacement when the torque and power numbers are there. The 10spds were not developed for higher RPM smallerpower units. They were developed to handle a wide range of power plants with different power bands and performance needs. Be it the 2.3L or the ridiculous 3L 490hp 600ftlb monster they just put in the Lincoln version of the Explorer. Or the 6.2L V8 in the GM rigs. Its a brilliant design idea and performance tool one base transmission capable of being really good in a wide range of uses.

That 2.3L by the way is pretty close to my Toyota 4.7v8 in power figures the 10spd combo just crushes the 4.7 5spd combo. And no your not winding it out any more than I would the old 4.7. Only bummer? The 2.3 doesn’t sound good. The V8 is king of the cool sounds.

 

[blackangie]

So many arm chair experts.

Having been in, driven, and off roaded the old defender in various engine models.
They are great for a toy and for off roading but are a pathetic on road model, noise levels, vibrations and poor ergonomics make it a very tiring place to cover any miles in.

One persons “easy to work on” is another persons pain in the ******** because it’s broken. Again.

It sold for many years with only engine and dash upgrades as and when forced by legislation, whereas the rivals had complete model changes to be modern and go with what the market and customers wanted.

They were expensive, unreliable, leak fluids like sieves, are easily stolen and outclassed in many ways by their rivals.
For the same price as an entry level 90 hardtop, you could buy a mid to high spec Hilux, run it for 5 years with basic servicing and no worries. Which is why my local energy company SSE, moves from defenders to Hiluxes.

This new one addresses the on road issues, it’s quiet, comfortable and refined, like its rivals.
They had to make the Land Rover off road course harder to give it a challenge, the same course all Land Rover models have been tested on for decades....
It’s been all over the world, in a variety of environments and tests that

Unlike the old one, it will have to pass crash tests, be pedestrian friendly, pass emission regulations, and still be sold worldwide to all markets.
A proper worlds car in a time when environmental concerns are getting louder and tougher.

Also, the new Jeep sat the NCAP tests and got 1 star. Out of 5. Because the car, at 30mph crushes into the cabin and injures the occupants. Which for a modern car is quite an achievement.


This new model to me sits as a happy half house from a defender and a Discovery 4.
Which is why myself and other discovery owners are excited as it could be an ideal replacement for current models in time.

Its rare to see such a long comment on these forums with so much fact, Spot on in so many ways.

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[blackangie]

Up from terrible numbers but still a financial mess.

Jaguar Land Rover swings back into the red as sales fall
FT
London JULY 25, 2019

Jaguar Land Rover has vowed to return to profit this year on the back of cost-cutting and new model launches, after swinging back into the red during the last quarter following falling sales in major markets. The group lost £395m in the three months to June, deeper than the £264m loss posted the same quarter a year earlier, and compared to a profit of £120m reported between January and March. Sales last quarter fell 12 per cent to 129,000, in part because of factory downtime the company booked in anticipation of Britain leaving the EU in April, while revenues slipped 2.8 per cent to £5.1bn............

Bit glass half empty are you

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