2020 Defender Spy Shots....

[Bobzdar]

Same with the LC...JLR already has a handful of IFS/IRS luxo soft roaders.....why more of the same?

Just make the Defender the rugged offroader...and if you want luxury, JLR has plenty of options for your...Range Rover, RR Sport, LR4/5, Discovery, Discovery Sport (******?), whatever

For the Defender: Solid rear axle, Normally aspirated 4 and 6 cyl, AC and power windows/locks as the only luxuries. Manual control of everything. No need for screens or programmed terrain response. Sliders and knobs for air con and radio. No air suspension. Slider side cargo windows. Cloth seats and cheap flooring. Back away from the 1999 concept car styling. Maybe even removable top and doors?!

So you want them to build a late 90's Jeep in 2020? If that's what you want, I have great news for you - they're cheap and plentiful!

 

[JeepColorado]

Judging by the number of Toyota guys in here slinging mud (I thought they h8mud), seems lots are LR curious?

Unlike the LCs, these are cheaper and offer a lower utilitarian spec with vinyl floors, stuff the Toyota guys have been asking for. Better payload and towing too along with a rear mounted spare.

If Toyota offered something like this the LC guys would go bonkers. This seems like the better LC than the real one...this is coming from a reformed cruiser head.

Except the LC stands on a history of bullet-proof reliability. IF, and I say IF, the Defender goes the way of almost every other LR product in the last decade their resale value will plummet after about 5 years because no one would want to own one longer than that. The resale market says a lot about the actual staying power of a vehicle- Jeep Wranglers have one of the highest resale values of any vehicles ever created- that should tell you something. I really hope that time will show that LR has turned a corner and that the Defender is a worthwhile vehicle- quite frankly I think Jeep and the Toyota LC could finally use some competition- they haven't had any in a long time.

I'm LR curious- the Defender is an intriguing vehicle- and LR has clearly stated that they need to attract others into the brand in order to be successful- well part of that attraction will mean having to overcome a bit of healthy and incredibly reasonable skepticism that LR rightly deserves about the quality and execution of their product.

 

[Victory_Overland]

Because I opened this can of worms on myself; I'll take the beating like a man! hahaha

The point isn’t the cost upfront. If you’re looking sub-$30k, you’re gonna buy one used. I paid $26k for my LR4, someone else paid over $60k and had a great time with it before me, but probably traded it in for sub-$20k...

Wait for the new defender to hit the secondary markets if you want in for less cash.

Agreed, it'll be hard to find a used one with the options wanted/needed but possible if someone's wife orders a utility spec one like I want!

You guys are really hard to follow, I swear. One minute the new Defender is not enough like the old one (which really was underpowered and did not even have lockers btw), the next minute I need to buy the 400HP engine and the full equipped one or it's no good.

I'd say the base trim would be perfectly adequate to go explore Africa.

Agreed, when they put the diesel option in! Right now, 300hp model with zero fuel/range specs on a 23gal (21.5 usable) and loaded to max gross of 7000lbs, I'm guessing range on the petrol will be similar if not worse than my D3. 300hp is surely enough, but diesel and turbo torque is what gets us the range and usability on lower hp/higher tq ratings on loaded vehicles. I agree with you and hope the 4cyl diesel will keep the price tag in the same as your configuration and I'll buy one!

This is what I want to know! The Defender we got today is closer to what I had hoped the Discovery 5 was going to be. The Disco 5 design aesthetics are really unpalatable if you are a fan of the boxy LR3/4, so this new Defender is a much more welcomed sight in my book. That said, if this is what the Defender has become / has to be in the year 2019 -- why do we still need the Discovery? Land Rover has too many product lines! They need to trim the fat and figure out their identity and profitable offerings --- axe everything else that doesn't strong serve either brand identity or profits.

Agreed; said that from the beginning and Ford learned the hard way and will recover because they cut "everything" that didn't make them legit money. It'll take a while for them, but they made the right first move IMO.

When did 300hp become 'underpowered'? That's ridiculous.

See above; my point is the 300hp at 7k max gross is going to struggle on range/performance. I want my vehicle to be able to max gross and still have the power/torque with range so it is a personal preference. 4cyl TD at the same price tag and I'm in for the win!

You realize the 2.0 has more power than a 40 series, 60 series, 80 series and is on par with a 100 series...its adequate.

After owning a ranger with the 2.3 EB, the new small displacement engines are amazing.

I'm not comparing it to them because the weight is not even close for a power to weight comparison in a fully configured vehicle.

One of the biggest disappointments for me is the cost adder of the P400 at $12K over the base 2.0L and no other options. That immediately puts you in the $70K-$80K range with just a few options. The Discovery diesel is +$2K. Theoretically that could have been a $53/54K Defender base model, not $62K.

Also agree that dealers will offer $80K Defenders, not $49K.

Agreed and hoping the 4cyl TD will keep me in $55k range for the Explorer 110 package. If not, I don't think I can justify $12k upgrade and will have to wait and see if one turns up on the resale market in a few years.

 

[nickw]

See above; my point is the 300hp at 7k max gross is going to struggle on range/performance. I want my vehicle to be able to max gross and still have the power/torque with range so it is a personal preference. 4cyl TD at the same price tag and I'm in for the win!


I'm not comparing it to them because the weight is not even close for a power to weight comparison in a fully configured vehicle.



Agreed and hoping the 4cyl TD will keep me in $55k range for the Explorer 110 package. If not, I don't think I can justify $12k upgrade and will have to wait and see if one turns up on the resale market in a few years.

Not sure where you are coming from, the power to weight is actually favorable for the Defender relative to the others. You realize the 2.0 gas engine has sim torque to a 100 series and more HP, they have similar Gross weights. It's definitely no rocket and is not a "sports" SUV that LR is known for but it's wrong to say it's under powered when many of it's contemporaries have lower power to weight ratios....

Regarding Range, again, it's got sim size gas tank as the cruisers and by all accounts will get significantly better mileage....so range is up over the Toyotas.

 

[nickw]

Except the LC stands on a history of bullet-proof reliability. IF, and I say IF, the Defender goes the way of almost every other LR product in the last decade their resale value will plummet after about 5 years because no one would want to own one longer than that. The resale market says a lot about the actual staying power of a vehicle- Jeep Wranglers have one of the highest resale values of any vehicles ever created- that should tell you something. I really hope that time will show that LR has turned a corner and that the Defender is a worthwhile vehicle- quite frankly I think Jeep and the Toyota LC could finally use some competition- they haven't had any in a long time.

I'm LR curious- the Defender is an intriguing vehicle- and LR has clearly stated that they need to attract others into the brand in order to be successful- well part of that attraction will mean having to overcome a bit of healthy and incredibly reasonable skepticism that LR rightly deserves about the quality and execution of their product.

100% agree, LR has to prove it's a reliable chassis, but I think it will be....but many folks simply don't care about massive resale value, why should they, it's a depreciating asset, so are any new vehicles, LC included.....it's not an investment...unless you count that FJ40 I sold in 2012, it's worth 3x my selling price now, that still stings.

Jeep, the newer ones at least, are not known for being bullet-proof reliable so their resale value has many other nuances to it.

I think many folks will be surprised, based on what we've read, this thing has the chops and was designed for the long haul.

 

[JackW]

I've really come to appreciate the 600 mile range of my Discovery 5 TDV6 (1-3/4 tanks of fuel Atlanta to upstate New York) so I'm waiting for a diesel Defender. Having a boatload of torque at 1500 rpm is addicting.

I'd prefer the Ingenium 6 for the inherent smoothness of an online six but I would gladly take the four cylinder diesel if necessary. I wish LRNA would let us know what and when to expect the diesels.

 

[aek50]

Couple points. For those questioning the price of the 6 cyl; as was pointed out on another forum, the engine appears very high tech being able to harvest energy in a similar manner to a F1 car during deceleration and then send to the electronic supercharger to put out impressive numbers so it's more than just a expensive 6 cyl. Cost in general for the vehicle is similar to less in inflation adjusted dollars then the Defenders new in mid-late 90s so we really shouldn't be surprised, and seeing how many people are getting a suitable truck on the build site for less then 60k ain't bad. Land Rover still and always has been a premium brand.

For dependability I agree, the brand still has a lot to prove, but you can't overlook the last 15 years. Ever since the end of the Disco II and getting rid of the 1960s Buick V8, numbers have steadily improved. Seeing LR3s and 4s easily pass 200k without much issue. 135k on my LR4 with only 1 wheel bearing and standard bushings replaced. I have confidence the Defender will continue this. Not like other brands are perfect too, just had a buddy get his Gladiator purchased back as a lemon.

 

[onemanarmy]

So you want them to build a late 90's Jeep in 2020? If that's what you want, I have great news for you - they're cheap and plentiful!

I hear this poorly thought out argument a lot.

No is the answer.

Make a Defender. Update it with current materials, modern design, engineering, and manufacturing standards. (cheaper, lighter, stronger, etc). Use a proven, time tested, reliable engine and trans combo. No turbo or hybrid or the need to harvest energy when slowing down. We want easy to maintain and reliable with this model. Put the AC compressor and alternator up top. Give it a manual T case with 4.1 gear set. Cable lockers. Mechanical steering and a throttle cable. Put a separate screen in for the backup cam to appease the safety nazis, so when it quits working, it can be taken out or easily replaced. Removable top and doors. No vehicle is perfect, but slapping a bunch of tech onto a vehicle designed for rugged off road use is not a good recipe.

What we have here is JLR over complicating a proven truck that shares nothing with a 'Defender' except for a flat rear door.

 

[nickw]

I hear this poorly thought out argument a lot.

No is the answer.

Make a Defender. Update it with current materials, modern design, engineering, and manufacturing standards. (cheaper, lighter, stronger, etc). Use a proven, time tested, reliable engine and trans combo. No turbo or hybrid or the need to harvest energy when slowing down. We want easy to maintain and reliable with this model. Put the AC compressor and alternator up top. Give it a manual T case with 4.1 gear set. Cable lockers. Mechanical steering and a throttle cable. Put a separate screen in for the backup cam to appease the safety nazis, so when it quits working, it can be taken out or easily replaced. Removable top and doors. No vehicle is perfect, but slapping a bunch of tech onto a vehicle designed for rugged off road use is not a good recipe.

What we have here is JLR over complicating a proven truck that shares nothing with a 'Defender' except for a flat rear door.

You sound like a tired old record, it's the same thing folks said with all the new iterations of Land Cruiser and Tacomas too, people still bought them and now people defend them.

What your saying appeals to a very minor niche, like the operators in the African bush or militants in war torn countries. Can you imagine if rover actually listened to your advice, they'd sell 20 rigs....not to guys like you cause they'd still be too expensive since the economies of scale would be out of whack so they'd have to charge $150k for a 'heritage' rig, for that price you could go get a custom cruiser made from Icon.

If you want simple, get your 55 rebuilt with a R2.8...drop $25k into it, there you go! If you want new, it exists too:

Home - ROXOR Offroad

 

[XJLI]

The LC300 could debut tomorrow at starting at $101,000 for a full-on luxury experience, 55 touchscreens, with a hybrid turbo V6 with less power, 101 ECUs, IFS/IRS, 21" wheels, and similar payload and towing numbers and Toyota dudes will ********** all over it saying how much better than the Defender it is.

This just in: New cars are New. Sorry for the convenience.

 

[onemanarmy]

Did they sell more than twenty 2015 Defenders? Never once did I mention JLR building a truck that was held together with duct tape and electrical wire, like you see in the African bush.

Toyota has killed the Land Cruiser name too. JLR is not the only guilty party.

I don't want my 55 rebuilt as 'new'. I want a Defender built with modern metallurgy and frame design, new and improved door sealing, modern engine and trans, 4 wheel discs, modern air con, top shelf and modern power windows and locks (optional), radio (optional) modern spring and shock tech. Removable top and doors. Solid axles and lockers and real T case gears. Why so many interconnected electrical systems? All that with a warranty and ease of parts availability. At least they have the steel wheel option.

There is a way to continue the lineage without straying so far. Other automakers do it.

Or, if you want, get any one of the other JLR crossovers that have heated and cooled seats.

 

[Jurfie]

Agreed, when they put the diesel option in! Right now, 300hp model with zero fuel/range specs on a 23gal (21.5 usable) and loaded to max gross of 7000lbs, I'm guessing range on the petrol will be similar if not worse than my D3. 300hp is surely enough, but diesel and turbo torque is what gets us the range and usability on lower hp/higher tq ratings on loaded vehicles. I agree with you and hope the 4cyl diesel will keep the price tag in the same as your configuration and I'll buy one!

There's an interesting discussion over in the Jeep forum regarding overseas/remote travel diesel quality not playing nicely with new diesel engines. I'm not sure if it applies in this case, but the underlying consensus seems to be that newer petrol engines are becoming more realistic for overlanding in Africa. Now I'm no expert w/r/t diesel engines or traveling in Africa, so I'm relying on people smarter than me. That argument goes out the window if we are talking about range in NA or other countries with higher-quality diesel fuel, but worth mentioning for those considering exploring Africa who haven't already done the research. ?‍

Me? I fit the target market for the new Defender. It would be perfect for getting me up the two-track dirt road to the cottage better than my Audi A5 can (which is to say not at all), and get me to where the dirt road starts more comfortably than my JKR can. It would be a great cross-country road-tripper that can travel the Dempster or the Hurley, get me up a unmaintained FSR in BC or climb to the top of Molyb. All this while still having good highway road manners to get me to where I want to turn off the pavement. Am I going to take it exploring in Africa? No. Am I going to take it rock-crawling in Moab? No. Am I going to keep it in the garage and baby it? No.

I'd consider the new Defender, but I do worry about the stigma of poor quality of JLR products in the past; I haven't kept up with how the newer ones compare as no other current LR/RR models appeal to me. So if JLR's intent was to widen their potential market, they've succeeded. Like many, I will likely wait a couple years before making a purchase, though (I never by a first-year model of a new-gen vehicle). Besides, I'm not ready to part with the Audi yet anyways and I have no intention of getting rid of the JKR until it gets replaced with another Wrangler in the future ("it's a Jeep thing; you wouldn't understand" ). I like the boxy, utilitarian look of the new Defender; is it as cool-looking as the previous-gen? No, but there is a nod to the classic and a nostalgic notion of the Defender name, so there is a novelty factor for me. That novelty might wear off when I see them on every corner in town, driven by people who will never use it as anything other than a status symbol (like the many AMG G-Class rigs in town).

But, the new Defender ticks the boxes enough that it has caught my attention and for me, that's a win.

 

[Jurfie]

There is a way to continue the lineage without straying so far. Other automakers do it.

Other than Jeep with the Wrangler; who?

 

[Todd780]

Other than Jeep with the Wrangler; who?

I thought Mercedes did a good job with the new G wagen.

 

[mpinco]

Not only would I have to pay $12K more for the P400 engine, I really get less than my 5.0L.

2019 Range Rover Sport's New High-Tech Inline-Six Struggles to Impress

"......Objectively, the new engine brings no improvement in performance, despite gains of 55 ponies and 74 lb-ft of torque over the supercharged 3.0-liter V-6 it replaces. .......

.....Both the P360 and P400 variants better the old supercharged V-6's EPA city, highway, and combined fuel economy ratings by 2 mpg, although our 5384-pound test car (201 pounds heavier than our last V-6 Sport) averaged just 16 mpg during its time with us. ........."