2020 Defender Spy Shots....

[REDROVER]

send a nice tits letter to British minister of defense and tell them air suspension is supper tits and more reliable, let’s swap all military defenders from coil to air suspension.

 

[Victory_Overland]

send a nice tits letter to British minister of defense and tell them air suspension is supper tits and more reliable, let’s swap all military defenders from coil to air suspension.

They are replacing them with G-Wagons like the Aussies and most Aussies I've talked to can't stand the G-Wagon because of so many computer failures and the truck stuck in limp mode. When the Aussies were with us, they towed their G-Wagons back with the Defenders that were being replaced with G-Wagons.....hahahaha

 

[Todd n Natalie]

They are replacing them with G-Wagons like the Aussies and most Aussies I've talked to can't stand the G-Wagon because of so many computer failures and the truck stuck in limp mode. When the Aussies were with us, they towed their G-Wagons back with the Defenders that were being replaced with G-Wagons.....hahahaha

We've been using G-wagons here for a few years now too.



Quite the story about this museum piece...

Search the Collections | Canadian War Museum

www.warmuseum.ca

 

[REDROVER]

For real British military is gonna switch to G wagon ?
What was wrong with old military defender?
Those g wagons looks nice though ( military version)

 

[Victory_Overland]

For real British military is gonna switch to G wagon ?
What was wrong with old military defender?
Those g wagons looks nice though ( military version)

I can only imagine; Canada and Aus made the switch a long time ago because LR missed the boat on a replacement. G-Wagons everywhere; sweet piece of kit but lots of electronic problems from what my Aussie mates tell me. I can't speak first hand on it other than my limited exposer of about 6 weeks of working with them and watching them tow their G-Wagons around with each other and the Defender 6x6 maintenance vehicles. When they are working, they love them.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

The primary issue for EAS is lack of PM.

On the LR3/4, the truck will auto level every 20 minutes once it's shut off. If you have a leak (in the bag, blocks, lines, etc), the truck will lower on one corner, then level. Then lower again, then level. Pretty soon you're on the bump stops.

If you don't address these concerns, your compressor will be running all the time, which can lead to a failure due to overheating, especially when at offroad height when more air is needed to keep the bags full. If you run a stupid set of johnson rods, this will be accelerated as you'll be over-height the whole time with the compressor running nonstop.

The 2nd issue is that many people ignore the fitment of oversize tires with EAS. I run a 265/65/18 tire, which I've verified to clear at full lock even with the bags complete deflated. If you run a larger tire, you could see an EAS failure and not even be able to get moving on flat ground.

Paranoid (prepared?) people will also add a valve to the top of the airbags to be able to air them up with a standard compressor. This could help you in the event of a compressor failure on the trail.

Air Suspension has a bad wrap because it was problematic early on when introduced into production vehicles, but most of the lessons have been learned the hard way and long ago resolved with today's air suspension systems.. for example the infamous Audi Allroad was one of the first, and always had problems.. mostly because if it sprung a leak, it'd run the compressor at full duty cycle, which its not rated for.. and burn it up.. now you have a leak and need a new pump.. However on mine, its got time out timer and thermal monitoring on the air compressor.. it wont run the pump until it fails anymore.. Other issues were with corrosion and stuff, air fittings w/poor metallurgy that would corrode and then snap, requiring a whole new strut (expensive).. the check valves now on the struts are really easy to service, wont weld them selves to the strut.. are cheap and easy to replace if one gets stuck.. most of the problems with air suspension were not with struts themselves, but with check valves, distribution blocks, air hoses.. and after a couple of decades the engineers have worked out most of the longterm issues with that "complexity"..

The only issues I really hear of anymore are intermittent stuck valves, and usually only in really cold temps.. indicating there is some moisture in the line and the valves are freezing shut.. I live in a really dry climate so I've never had that issue.

Thank you both for these answers. That is very informative. My thinking has evolved on this topic, and my takeaway is that Air Suspension represents a unique challenge with a vehicle, but the problems you folks had identified appear to be manageable. Every vehicle has unique challenges of varying degrees, and depending on the application those challenges might not matter, or they might matter a great deal. The alleged complexity of these systems doesn’t seem to be as big of a deal as I thought, especially with Blaise’s point of installing valves and inflating ‘manually’ with a compressor, and Dreadlocks’ point about how long these systems have been in use and what has been done to address the common failures. Traditional suspension would have gone through a similar process.

If the Defender uses the same air bags at every wheel (Maybe they all do, I don’t know) it will help. That way, one spare bag on hand might be enough in case of a rupture, and in the event of component failure you can just blow up the balloon with your external valve. I dare say that seems like an easy problem to fix, and depending on the process, I can see this being even easier than dealing with a broken leaf or coil. Ease of roadside repair matters a lot to me — I don’t see reliability as ‘never breaking’; the nature of Overlanding means stuff will get roughed up and worn out and eventually you need to turn a wrench or — certainly for any rig built in the last 15 years or so, not just JLR cars — boot up the laptop. I see reliability as at least partly “rely on it to get you home”, so that is where the ease of trail-side repairs matters.

Of course the other perspective is frequency of that repair needing to be done. Nobody wants to have to fix the same problem over and over. I know there are a million anecdotes about Air Suspension failures, which suggests these fail often. But those anecdotes get repeated a lot by people who sometimes don’t have experience with airbags, as many negative experiences are amplified quite a bit online. Positive anecdotes tend to be whispers on the wind (hot air? ) that is the internet in comparison to the negative ones.

Regardless, positive or negative anecdotes only paint part of the picture. I’d really like someone to take 10, 20, 100, or 1,000 Rovers with air suspension, and an equal number of Jeeps with Coils, and maybe an equal number of rigs with leaf springs, and put them through the same sets of real-world tests until failure so there can be some aggregate data. If this data exists and is recent I’d love to see it. It’s hard to beat the conceptual simplicity of metal springs, and I think there’s a lot of wisdom there — but air bags maybe aren’t the serious deal breaker I initially thought they were.

Thanks for the information, folks. Much appreciated learning about this today!

 

[GetOutThere]

I can only imagine; Canada and Aus made the switch a long time ago because LR missed the boat on a replacement. G-Wagons everywhere; sweet piece of kit but lots of electronic problems from what my Aussie mates tell me. I can't speak first hand on it other than my limited exposer of about 6 weeks of working with them and watching them tow their G-Wagons around with each other and the Defender 6x6 maintenance vehicles. When they are working, they love them.

With respect, Canada only made the switch recently.... and that was from the Iltis. It was only done because our current Iltis' were falling apart. By that point the writing was on the wall regarding the Defender, so it wouldn't have made any sense as a replacement.

My GF is very excited about our military acquirement of the G. She loves the Euro/Military Gs and hopes to buy one when Canada cycles them out. I know better. By the time we cycle them out, they will be totally destroyed and only worth scrap.

Regarding the current air suspension debate, my brother in law wheels a Jeep GC Trailhawk with air suspension, and that thing is damn impressive. It's also brand new, and I'm watching the air suspension closely. The Jeep has a closed system, but the RAMPANT issues with Ram truck air suspension in Canada during colder weather has me worried. I believe the Rams use an open system however.

 

[Highlander]

I think some day, hopefully soon, some vendors will figure out a coil spring conversion kit for the new defender. Until then we only have to hope they have actually put heavy duty off-road capability in the air suspension.

 

[blackangie]

I think some day, hopefully soon, some vendors will figure out a coil spring conversion kit for the new defender. Until then we only have to hope they have actually put heavy duty off-road capability in the air suspension.

Apparently it has been tested to one level below military spec, D7x on paper looks to be very tough.

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[gatorgrizz27]

I think some day, hopefully soon, some vendors will figure out a coil spring conversion kit for the new defender. Until then we only have to hope they have actually put heavy duty off-road capability in the air suspension.

As has been discussed, LR air suspension has been very robust for over a decade now. The bad raps primarily come from people who don’t address problems that exist for awhile, until they fail.

I’m assuming the 110’s only come with air suspension due to payload vs ride balance, the 90’s should be available with coils.

 

[grizzlyj]

How much of any vehicle performance is used is never the point on a private vehicle. How it makes you feel is.

Wether green oval, prancing horse, Spirit of Ecstasy or the cheapest wheels you can get your hands on, if it makes you happy then it's worth the cash.

Snipperd

Where are you reading all this about the air suspension being so horrible? Because the actual owners of theses trucks have been commenting over and over right here in this thread about how robust they've been.

How many army trucks at the moment have air springs? General vehicle installs are better now because the compressors duty cycle has been correctly engineered after the fact? Why have something that could leak in the first place if you want reliability first, comfort second?

How many new army vehicles made the same way as new road vehicles are actually reliable in use? And how many armies are re-engineering and keeping hold of stuff way out of their original lifespan despite being Euro 0 and not an ECU in sight? Ring round EU surplus dealers and see what they can actually get hold of for you and why.

New base or commercial spec Defenders will have coils anyway it says somewhere, so the parts will exist for standard height switch outs without aftermarket.

Honest John is a good source of independent owner reports. I looked at the Disco 4 because when they came out I'd read a lot of reports of the whole suspension deflating at speed and thought some might pop up there but no so I must have imagined it and it's all fine. Some interesting reading though https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/land-rover/discovery-4-2009/good/ My neighbour has an unabused one and I very definitely can't say it's trouble free!!!!!

Why is complicated better?

 

[DieselRanger]

Their small volume doesn't stop you from seeing plenty of them at Starbucks!

I see a lot more lifted Rubicons that have never seen dirt at Starbucks than I do Land Rovers.

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[DieselRanger]

Independent suspensions introduce so many more wear items and complexity compounded by their insistence on using air springs.

I'd like to see some data on the "much more" reliability of LED vs. regular auto bulbs, especially given the price, the money and time spent to design a vehicle specifc light assembly, and the ability of anyone with a screwdriver and $4 to change one. Sure, they can look cool and use less electricity, which has its place in certain cases. I doubt a potential 2020 Defender buyer would say no to it because it had regular taillight bulbs.

I'm fine with 'high' torque engines in vehicles meant to pull heavy loads or make quick 0-60 runs.

Hence my 'long haul' comment.

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What rock have you lived under for the last ten years? You don't believe LEDs last longer than regular bulbs?

LOL

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[DieselRanger]

I don't want a Wrangler. I don't want a new FCA anything.

I want Land Rover and/or Toyota to go at the Wrangler, take over that spot. The market is obviously there. JLR and Toyota have the pedigree, the lineage, the world renowned names. They make attempts, but swing and miss, and I'm not sure why? They just make more of the same, but then expect us to get excited and lap them up just because they slap the badge on it. No problem with tech. It has a place....I love my AC and power windows. But I don't need a screen, auto anything, air suspension, leather anything, custom designed integrated auto dimming and leveling LED headlights, computer programmed terrain modes, etc. That stuff is great, just not on a Defender (or Wrangler or Land cruiser, or Bronco...)

The SS and GTO were great cars, under the skin. The design was bland and they didn't advertise them. A piss poor job by GM. Had nothing to do with the names. The good used ones are commanding top tier prices now.

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Land Rover cannot, will not, and doesn't want to take over the Wrangler's spot. If they tried, they'd go bankrupt. And that's not what they ever built for the consumer market in North America anyway.

Toyota maybe could, but they'd have to bring back the FJ. And holy ******** did people complain when the old-new FJ came out! "It's too big." "it doesn't look enough like the original." "You can't work on it in the field." "no aftermarket parts." "Too expensive for an FJ / Wrangler is cheaper." "No removable top." And now? They're appreciating. In ten years you'll never see them off-road because they'll be too precious to risk doing anything but take them out on a Saturday afternoon after a nice wax job, unless you find one with a salvage title and rebuild it like people do with old Rovers and CJs. But Toyota won't do that either because there's no money in it.


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[DieselRanger]

it’s funny when ppl say there is no market for rugged SUV
actually that segment is booming,
it’s the other way around, there is no market for luxury SUVs,
Go to your nearest ford dealer and climb up on board of ford diesel truck, it will absolutely make your think Range Rover is Stone Age, and that’s just ford pick up, everyone makes luxury vehicles now, how does Land Rover stand out ?

have you been in new Lincoln Navigator?
I promise Range Rover is years behind with its tech and luxury.
It has everything, the same train management setup as Land Rover and it’s absolutely stunning inside and it’s 100 grand.
If this new defender was ultra rugged suv it would made Land Rover once again top dog, but it blends in now.
Before Land Rover was luxury brand and everyone was behind them.
Now Other makes are equal or even better.

No market for luxury SUVs?? Land Rover, Jaguar, Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Bentley, Rolls, Lamborghini, Alfa, Maserati, and soon Ferrari and Aston Martin all vehemently disagree with that statement, and the sales numbers prove it. Look no further, in fact, than Ferrari, who decided they needed a higher-volume seller at high margin to fund further supercar development. And they're building a Ferrari SUV.

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with a luxury SUV that is also supremely capable off-road. Land Rover has been doing that for decades, as has Mercedes with the G-Wagen.

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