John E Davies
Adventurer
Ooops, sorry. I thought it was also available as a 1/2 ton....
I sure wish they would stuff a Cummins in some of them. I love the truck's features but not the Hemi.
John Davies
Spokane WA
4WD PU buying advice
- Thread starter Durango
- Start date
Ooops, sorry. I thought it was also available as a 1/2 ton....
I sure wish they would stuff a Cummins in some of them. I love the truck's features but not the Hemi.
John Davies
Spokane WA
Wow, you guys know your stuff. I have a lot to learn. I CAN turn a wrench- just don't really want to. (My hobby is cabinet work and remodeling my home so I'm not afraid of modifying the actual camper.)
And John, the EXPO sounds great and I would be there in a heartbeat EXCEPT Sioux and I HAVE TO be in Denver on May 19th. Wouldn't you know!
So I guess I'm getting led toward a 3/4 ton 4 WD long bed. Just gotta get out there and look at the extended cabs versus the full crews. The camper would probably be more or less permanently installed on the truck. (I have a 6' x 12' double axle I use now with the Highlander for Home Depot runs.)
Thanks for all the advice,
Steve
PS Heck, I'm even thinking of selling my less than 10,000-miles-on-it Highlander to help justify a new truck. You guys are dangerous reading! BTW, I read somewhere Dodge does not recommend installing a camper on the Power Wagon. True?
And John, the EXPO sounds great and I would be there in a heartbeat EXCEPT Sioux and I HAVE TO be in Denver on May 19th. Wouldn't you know!
So I guess I'm getting led toward a 3/4 ton 4 WD long bed. Just gotta get out there and look at the extended cabs versus the full crews. The camper would probably be more or less permanently installed on the truck. (I have a 6' x 12' double axle I use now with the Highlander for Home Depot runs.)
Thanks for all the advice,
Steve
PS Heck, I'm even thinking of selling my less than 10,000-miles-on-it Highlander to help justify a new truck. You guys are dangerous reading! BTW, I read somewhere Dodge does not recommend installing a camper on the Power Wagon. True?
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The Power Wagon has a lower payload rating than a regular 3/4 ton. Probably because the springs have more flex for off roading...
http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/towing_payload/2012/
Looks like the PW is rated to carry about 1300lbs LESS than a standard 3/4 ton...
http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/towing_payload/2012/
Looks like the PW is rated to carry about 1300lbs LESS than a standard 3/4 ton...
goodtimes
Expedition Poseur
Definitely look to the 3/4 or 1-ton trucks.
My dodge 3/4 ton (short bed) with a FWC Grandby, the rear suspension is on the soft side for off road use. Part of that is the fact that I have a short bed truck with a long bed camper - but at 800 pounds dry, then load it with food, water, gear, etc., you'll be pushing an easy 1,200 - 1,500 pounds. That is a lot of load on a 3/4 ton truck when you get it off road.
I don't own one - but don't the Power Wagons use a softer (1/2 ton) spring with the 3/4 ton frame & axles? If it's true, that could be why people are saying not to put a camper on one. Also, I have heard from people with power wagons and FWC Hawks that they are into the single digits with regard to fuel economy. My '99 Dodge (w/Cummins) is getting around 13 - 14 @ 75mph on the freeway (it also has a modified fuel pump that hurts economy - thanks to the previous owner). The new diesels are a whole different ball game that what you saw in the 70's and early 80's.
My dodge 3/4 ton (short bed) with a FWC Grandby, the rear suspension is on the soft side for off road use. Part of that is the fact that I have a short bed truck with a long bed camper - but at 800 pounds dry, then load it with food, water, gear, etc., you'll be pushing an easy 1,200 - 1,500 pounds. That is a lot of load on a 3/4 ton truck when you get it off road.
I don't own one - but don't the Power Wagons use a softer (1/2 ton) spring with the 3/4 ton frame & axles? If it's true, that could be why people are saying not to put a camper on one. Also, I have heard from people with power wagons and FWC Hawks that they are into the single digits with regard to fuel economy. My '99 Dodge (w/Cummins) is getting around 13 - 14 @ 75mph on the freeway (it also has a modified fuel pump that hurts economy - thanks to the previous owner). The new diesels are a whole different ball game that what you saw in the 70's and early 80's.
There is no room for the winch behind the stock bumper with the cummins which is a main item. Additionally need to think about what springs/rates to use with the heavier engine. Also I don't know if there is room for the "smartbar" electronic releasing sway bar with the cummins up front.
That said you could upgrade a cummins to incorporate much of what the PW has if you wanted.
Part of that is the PW has more weight to it than a regular hemi 4x4, with the winch and numerous skid plates. Also the rear leafs are softer and made of more leafs.
Keep in mind a 1999 3/4T is a different beast than a newer one (same for all the model trucks), suspension and braking improvements have increased payloads quite a bit now.
No the power wagon uses a unique leaf spring that is softer and has more leafs to articulate. As mentioned above that along with the increased base weight of that truck eats into payload. The base weight and 4.56 gearing also eat into MPGs. That truck gets a couple MPG less than a comparable hemi 4x4 and we all know putting a FWC on a gas truck usually eats another 2-3mpg at freeway speeds. I passed on looking at PWs when I just picked up the 2007 Dodge 2500 4x4 hemi for some of those reasons.
goodtimes
Expedition Poseur
Certainly there have been improvements - the brakes couldn't get any damn worse than a '99 Dodge and still qualify as "brakes" & undoubtedly there have been improvements in ride & handling. But that doesn't change the fact that if you put 1500 pounds of camper + crap in the back of a stock 3/4 ton (or worse, a 1/2 ton) truck, it's going to wallow around off road. You're not going to die, your truck isn't going to fall apart, heck - it probably won't even turn a good trip into a bad trip - but trucks are still built for the 99% (those who never leave maintained roads); and that's my point.
If someone is looking at 1/2 ton trucks for a camper, and is planning on taking it off road, they should give serious thought to a 3/4 ton instead of the 1/2 ton. If the suspension on a 3/4 ton is working hard - imagine what the 1/2 ton is going through given the same load.
John E Davies
Adventurer
I know the 6.7 won't fit there, but I want something smaller anyway, like this: ... http://www.cumminsdieselspecs.com/v8_cummins.html
I don't need to tow six or eight tons - I just want the brute force and fuel economy of a medium sized diesel engine with a good payload for a camper.
Don't forget the electric lockers - I wonder why aren't those a factory option for the regular Rams? Upgrading via the aftermarket is expensive in both parts and labor. My 1996 LX450 has three factory e-lockers, and they are fantastic on the trail.
I don't care about a factory winch and bumper - there are plenty of much better aftermarket bumpers, and winch choices are endless.
John Davies
Spokane WA
Oh yeah if we're talking about dream setups a smaller V-6/V-8 cummins that could spool up some decent RPMs and still throw down massive torque would be epic. We keep dreaming and they keep teasing... I'm also curious where the turbo charged direct injection stuff will go in the rest of the truck world, I'm assuming fords ecoboost is just the tip of the iceberg.
Lockers: The controls of the lockers are ran through the smart bars (stupid design) so the factory can't just offer one without the other based on how they designed it.
OK, you gearheads are making my head spin! Now you all may have beat this topic to death but to help a humble and non-mechanically inclined guy could you give me some potential vehicles to look for? (I can fly out to buy a good candidate and have all winter to shop the Internet.) Here is my ever-changing summary of my situation and as always thanks in advance for any opinions:
Price: variable. I went into this thinking 20K for both camper and truck. But honestly for the right set-up (which I'll keep indefinitely so amortized out the difference should be little) I'll go two or three times the 20K.
Model year: Totally open but leaning toward low mileage since I want a hassle free experience and especially so along the White Rim or Cinnamon Pass, etc.
Vehicle: I'm leaning toward a Ford or Dodge extended cab long bed with a gas engine ( don't need incredible speed/torque) but would go diesel. However, just reading a V10 vs. diesel thread over in Expedition Vehicles totally confused me. Where is the sweet spot in engines/trannys/model years? Sigh ...
"Off-roadedness" (for lack of a better word": Once again, all these "Bilsteins" and ARB's and lock-outs are a whole new language. But I figure once I have the "right" truck I can ease into this stuff. On an off-road scale of 1 to 10 Sioux and I found our AWD Highlander was struggling at a 3. I don't like "struggling" when off-road. My guess is we won't be doing much more than a 5 or 6 and probably less. But would want the capacity to get ourselves out of a jam.
Camper: Totally confused on brand- FWC vs. ATC vs. Phoenix and used vs. new. But as a puttering handy man/cabinet maker I'm not as intimidated by a camper as I am the vehicle.
Thoughts?
Steve
Price: variable. I went into this thinking 20K for both camper and truck. But honestly for the right set-up (which I'll keep indefinitely so amortized out the difference should be little) I'll go two or three times the 20K.
Model year: Totally open but leaning toward low mileage since I want a hassle free experience and especially so along the White Rim or Cinnamon Pass, etc.
Vehicle: I'm leaning toward a Ford or Dodge extended cab long bed with a gas engine ( don't need incredible speed/torque) but would go diesel. However, just reading a V10 vs. diesel thread over in Expedition Vehicles totally confused me. Where is the sweet spot in engines/trannys/model years? Sigh ...
"Off-roadedness" (for lack of a better word": Once again, all these "Bilsteins" and ARB's and lock-outs are a whole new language. But I figure once I have the "right" truck I can ease into this stuff. On an off-road scale of 1 to 10 Sioux and I found our AWD Highlander was struggling at a 3. I don't like "struggling" when off-road. My guess is we won't be doing much more than a 5 or 6 and probably less. But would want the capacity to get ourselves out of a jam.
Camper: Totally confused on brand- FWC vs. ATC vs. Phoenix and used vs. new. But as a puttering handy man/cabinet maker I'm not as intimidated by a camper as I am the vehicle.
Thoughts?
Steve
Mighty Dodge Ram
Explorer
I spoke with a Dodge Truck exec once about this. (Re: the Power Wagon) Highly doubtful...he cited the extra weight and the diminished clearance (deeper pan) as big issues.
I'm not going to tell you what to buy but I can answer a fair amount of general questions on the 3rd generation Dodge (03-08) with the Hemi (5.7L gas engine). I think the quad cab version would fit your needs well and is reasonably priced since it's the "middle size" where as if you go with a ford for instance you'd need to go with the biggest cab style which is "super crew" and it costs a bit more than the "middle size" super cab. If you're looking in the ballpark I'd recommend an 06'+ for the transmission issue I referenced before and there is MDS (low load 4 cylinder shut off, I haven't had a chance to see how well this actually works with a camper yet). If you're looking at a 2500 then 2008.5+ gets you the new style of steering as well, however I've got the parts on order to change my 2007 over to the new steering for under $400 so it's not a deal breaker if you find a good deal. The track bar bushings are known to wear out (replaceable with new bushings ~$20/pair or burly aftermarket units $350 for nice adjustable units) and the steering shaft and gear box can be sloppy (both are replaceable with nice after market units or rebuilds, ~$250 for a shaft and ~$300 for a steering gear box rebuild). I'm not saying this issues are definitely going to come up or not, esp. if the truck is left stock height/tires but they can arise but they are also fixable. You just need to keep it in mind for your purchase. The 2007 I just bought has a really loose front end but it was running around on 35x12.5 tires so I'm working my way though things right now to get it all tightened up, I factored that into my purchase price though. Those are some honest thoughts on the dodge.
Fords deserve a look as well in my mind, I don't know a ton about their pros/cons though. I believe the gasser 3/4T comes with something like a 26gal tank though which can be a bit limiting (dodge 3/4T gasser comes with a 34gal) when you're only getting 12mpg, but you can get a replacement aftermarket 46gal tank for about a grand if you wanted to. I'm sure others more familiar can weight in some pros/cons.
Hopefully we can stick to good input rather than brand bashing.
ToolBox Guy
Adventurer
Keep it simple....
3/4T Dodge Quad Cab
2003-2008
Gas or diesel
Manual or auto trans.
Long Bed.
I have my own "Perfect" vehicle that I would pick, but if you're trying to narrow it down so that you can start shopping, then I would start with the above.
Why? Great configuration, good payload, you can still find low mileage trucks in those model years, with the price of diesel now, a gas truck is still a good option. These model years a manual is a good trans and alot of the automatic trans issues were fixed.
Go for the long bed so that you can maximize you camper configuration, a long bed Quad Cab Dodge has a turning radius that makes it feel nothing like driving a long bed truck......Long bed Ford, not so much.
3/4T Dodge Quad Cab
2003-2008
Gas or diesel
Manual or auto trans.
Long Bed.
I have my own "Perfect" vehicle that I would pick, but if you're trying to narrow it down so that you can start shopping, then I would start with the above.
Why? Great configuration, good payload, you can still find low mileage trucks in those model years, with the price of diesel now, a gas truck is still a good option. These model years a manual is a good trans and alot of the automatic trans issues were fixed.
Go for the long bed so that you can maximize you camper configuration, a long bed Quad Cab Dodge has a turning radius that makes it feel nothing like driving a long bed truck......Long bed Ford, not so much.
goodtimes
Expedition Poseur
You can do it for under $20K if you want to, and are willing to put a bit of elbow grease into it. Used FWC Hawks in good condition can be found for 6 - 8K with little trouble. Used Dodge or Ford 3/4 ton trucks, gas or diesel, in good shape can be found 10 - 15K all day long. With the diesels, don't be afraid of a truck with 150K on it. It will need some maintenance, but even if you pay a good mechanic to do it, you'll come out ahead of buying new.
My one word of caution on this one is people LOVE to say this and it's completely true that the engine itself has a ton of life in it. However most of the remaining components like bearings, ball joints, power steering pumps, alternators, etc. (which are often the same between a gas or diesel) have a design life target of 100k usually. So I'm personally leery of high mileage vehicles unless its a great price because regardless of gas or diesel you can often be putting some steady cash into replacing factory parts as they wear out all around on the vehicle (the bonus is lots of aftermarket parts to extend life are available when they do go). The diesel engine may run long but it's injectors, glow plugs, fuel pump, fuel filter, emission stuff most definitely do not and they will also nickle dime you. Buyer be informed.
deserteagle56
Adventurer
One thing you need to consider in the gas vs diesel debate and that is mileage, especially if you go to remote regions where a service station isn't just around the corner. I have a rig with the Ford V-10 gasser, and a Ram with the Cummins. The gasser has NEVER gotten better than 12 mpg, and off-roading it's more like 6 or 8 mpg. The Cummins averages about 18 in normal driving - but has never gotten less than 13, and that's loaded and towing heavy. So, for the same 30 gallons of fuel the diesel will get you ~390 - 540 miles, while the gas engine gets you ~180 - 240. And that's just not enough range for some of the places I like to go...and I don't like packing a bunch of extra gas cans!
As to the question of half-ton or heavier, I vote for heavier! The solid front axles, the all-around heavier duty components on a 3/4 or 1 ton make for a more durable unit when used in rough terrain. If you find it rides too rough for you there are soft-ride springs available to take care of that.
As to the question of half-ton or heavier, I vote for heavier! The solid front axles, the all-around heavier duty components on a 3/4 or 1 ton make for a more durable unit when used in rough terrain. If you find it rides too rough for you there are soft-ride springs available to take care of that.
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