Any built 300tdi D1 owners here?

[Red90]

I've sat at full throttle for long period and the temperature gauge never moves. Next time you get hot, pull over and (carefully) try and stop the fan with a rolled up newspaper. If it stop, the clutch is dead.

Is anything in the cooling system not stock? Is the shroud in place? The correct thermostat in place? Not sure about the 300, but on a 200TDI, the thermostat not only opens to the rad, but it closes off the bypass and it is important to not use a "generic" thermostat.

190 is not hot, of course, as that is the correct temperature for the thermostat. If it goes above that, something is not right.

 

[revor]

Likely the biggest issue is the full width IC, it ran cooler without that in place.
But the EGT's went higher sooner.
I will give the fan a beating with the newspaper and see what's up next.
Not sure of the thermostat I know it opens, i don't know if it's the proper version.

 

[piper109]

Well I found that my viscous clutch was no good. It seemed to spin easier hot than cold. Prior to that I changed my oil to a synthetic Mobil1 5W-40 Turbo diesel oil and the engine runs noticeably cooler. It made a believer out of me.

I decided to install a 2 speed 16" Electric fan from a Turbo 740 Volvo. (I already had it). I run the slow speed with the aircon (I removed the 2 small fans from in front) and I will connect the high speed to an X-fan switch when I get it.

I made 2 brackets attached to the fan shroud to mount the fan and it virtually fills the entire circular opening. It pulls 8 amps on low, 12-13 amps on high.

I want to be able to drive my truck anywhere without having to constantly watch the temp gauge in this 95-100 degree weather we have been having for the last 6 weeks.:26_16_2:

 

[David Harris]

I've considered the 300 Tdi swap for my Disco 1, but brand purity aside, I am now looking elsewhere, namely at the Isuzu 4BD1T. This motor seems stronger all around, with timing gears instead of the problematic timing belt (a belt on a heavy duty vehicle?), and over 250 ft. lbs of torque stock. Still revs just as high as the 300 Tdi and gets the same mileage. Parts are readily available worldwide, and it's all mechanical with direct injection. I'm tired of filling my V8 up every 200-250 miles.

David

 

[Viggen]

I've considered the 300 Tdi swap for my Disco 1, but brand purity aside, I am now looking elsewhere, namely at the Isuzu 4BD1T. This motor seems stronger all around, with timing gears instead of the problematic timing belt (a belt on a heavy duty vehicle?), and over 250 ft. lbs of torque stock. Still revs just as high as the 300 Tdi and gets the same mileage. Parts are readily available worldwide, and it's all mechanical with direct injection. I'm tired of filling my V8 up every 200-250 miles.

David

True, the 4BD is a stronger motor but thats namely due to the fact that it is a heavy duty, 1 ton rated diesel whereas the 300tdi is not. Theres nothing wrong with a belt for timing duties. It doesnt run gears and the timing belt issue was on only the very early motors so that doesnt seem to be a legitimate problem anymore. An LR lives and dies by the service schedule so whats it matter that you have to change the belt every 60k or so miles. You would have to do that with any other modern motor anyway. VW tdi's run belts and they run forever and can make ridiculous amounts of power and return exceptional economy.

Im going to do the swap in my D1 as I want the increased range. Theres really no other reason to do it as the cost of the swap would buy a LOT of gas. The other plus with the 300tdi swap is that it is almost a complete bolt in arrangement. It was designed to be there. Source a complete kit from a UK D1 and for the most part, itll bolt in. There is no fabrication or engineering to overcome. Cant say the same with a 4BD where you are going to have to swap suspension for the added weight and clearance as the motor is much bigger dimensionally, swap to a much larger radiator for added heat, swap sensors to get the motor to play with the stock dash cluster, swap to a GM trans of some sort to handle the power increase and with that new trans comes additional size and different mounting locations to adapt to, purchase the $1000 LT230 to GM transfer case adapter and then reroute the linkage to come out in the stock location, redo the propshafts as you now have either a longer or shorter driveline than stock, and thats just what I can think of off the top of my head. To me, its not worth it for the power. Im not hauling a 3000 lbs of furniture in my 8000+ lbs box truck so all that custom work just isnt worth it to me. A 300tdi with some power adders will more than do it for me.


Question for you already running a 300. Im not going to change the transfer case ratio but am going to go for the 4.10's in the axles...or so I think. If 4.10 would return it to stock but Im already running 255/85's, what ratio would then put it back to stock behavior and back into the best powerband?

 

[David Harris]

Im not hauling a 3000 lbs of furniture in my 8000+ lbs box truck so all that custom work just isnt worth it to me. A 300tdi with some power adders will more than do it for me.

I don't know about your running weight, but my Disco will be a three-ton rolling beast in expedition trim. I can put that heavy duty 1 ton rated power plant to good use. In the UK, enthusiasts are constantly looking for more powerful alternatives to the 300 Tdi. It is actually common to swap diesels for V8's there. The 300 Tdi into a NAS V8 Disco is easier than other swaps, but it is not a simple bolt in anyway. The transmission and engine mounts have to be changed and the NAS lacks the proper provisions for the diesel trans mount. The radiator must be changed as well as lots of custom plumbing made, such as the clutch, power steering, etc. Wiring is also not all that easy either. The Isuzu is quite a bit cheaper and easier to buy and easier/cheaper to rebuild, since it has liners and parts can be had at any GM dealer. It is EPA certified for this country whereas the 300 Tdi is technically illegal. Yes the tranny must be changed, but an NV4500 has an ultra low first gear which works great with a diesel, and it doesn't have the weaknesses of the R380, so it is more reliable. After all, it is spec'ed behind the Cummins 6BT in Dodge 1 ton trucks. It actually makes a nice package in a Disco. Check this link out: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSHmrlNNbvw"]YouTube- Custom 2000 Land Rover Discovery 2 TDI for sale.[/ame]

On the timing belt, looking at the HS2.8 group on yahoo, it seems that the belts are a constant source of headaches, even in the newest versions. Overlanders in Africa count this as the one great weakness of the LR diesel. Even changing them at 60K doesn't seem to guarantee that they won't fail at the most unexpected time, with critical results. The VW's are car engines. Name a heavy-duty, work oriented diesel which specs a belt?

 

[Red90]

I decided to install a 2 speed 16" Electric fan from a Turbo 740 Volvo. (I already had it). I run the slow speed with the aircon (I removed the 2 small fans from in front) and I will connect the high speed to an X-fan switch when I get it.

I would suggest the DCControl setup. The 2 speed controller is a good price and does everything you need (including AC operation) in one high quality sealed package.

http://www.dccontrol.com/fancontrol.htm

 

[David Harris]

I would suggest the DCControl setup. The 2 speed controller is a good price and does everything you need (including AC operation) in one high quality sealed package.

http://www.dccontrol.com/fancontrol.htm

Those look like awesome controllers. I'm putting those on my parts list for future reference.

 

[Viggen]

I don't know about your running weight, but my Disco will be a three-ton rolling beast in expedition trim. I can put that heavy duty 1 ton rated power plant to good use. In the UK, enthusiasts are constantly looking for more powerful alternatives to the 300 Tdi. It is actually common to swap diesels for V8's there. The 300 Tdi into a NAS V8 Disco is easier than other swaps, but it is not a simple bolt in anyway. The transmission and engine mounts have to be changed and the NAS lacks the proper provisions for the diesel trans mount. The radiator must be changed as well as lots of custom plumbing made, such as the clutch, power steering, etc. Wiring is also not all that easy either. The Isuzu is quite a bit cheaper and easier to buy and easier/cheaper to rebuild, since it has liners and parts can be had at any GM dealer. It is EPA certified for this country whereas the 300 Tdi is technically illegal. Yes the tranny must be changed, but an NV4500 has an ultra low first gear which works great with a diesel, and it doesn't have the weaknesses of the R380, so it is more reliable. After all, it is spec'ed behind the Cummins 6BT in Dodge 1 ton trucks. It actually makes a nice package in a Disco. Check this link out

Yes, that was built, sold, then sold again and now I believe it is laid up in someones garage with transmission difficulties. He has a build thread on Pirate I believe and you can search it out and youll find that it was no easy task. In comparison, a motor that was meant to be in there, with a kit available that allows the stock V8 mount locations to be kept making the motor a drop in proposition, and if you source the diesel trans crossmember, it is that much easier. Each motor has its pluses and minuses but for me, the ease of installation, ability for it to easily work with equipment already in the truck and the lack of need to make serious changes makes the 300tdi the best option for me. Also, pointing out that in Europe, where a diesel motor is ubiquitous and can be had in just about any guise and displacement you desire, is also not worthy of mentioning in point. These 1 ton diesel motors are popular here in the US because there are no other choices available. If the VM motors used by Jeep or the MB motors used in the Sprinter werent so damned expensive, theyd be in more midsize SUVs like a Disco. People use these tall and heavy motors because that is what is cheaply available, not because they are the best option.

Whether the VW motor is a car motor or not is not the issue. Most Rover stuff is, after all, car sourced, and most diesels used in SUV applications, are chain driven, not gear driven. The tensioner was the problem and that was redesigned making it not that much of an issue. The thing with reading forums and what is written there is people who have problems are the ones that usually post up which skews the numbers. So, with that said, do you really think that the belt is that much of an issue? I dont.

 

[Red90]

Whether the VW motor is a car motor or not is not the issue.

It can be. The VW diesel I own have no sealing whatsovever to the timing case. The timing belt covers are plastic, with no seals and just quickly clip on. For off road use, this would not work as the first big mud hole or water crossing and the timing belt would eat itself.

 

[Red90]

It actually makes a nice package in a Disco.

The D2 in that link has an NV3500, not a 4500. There has since been quite a few problems with the gear train. If you really start to look around, you will see that most people that have done Cummins conversions have has reliability issue outside of the engine, caused by the engine.... It can be done well, but it is not as simple as some people think.

 

[Viggen]

The D2 in that link has an NV3500, not a 4500. There has since been quite a few problems with the gear train. If you really start to look around, you will see that most people that have done Cummins conversions have has reliability issue outside of the engine, caused by the engine.... It can be done well, but it is not as simple as some people think.

Proves my point exactly. A 1 ton rated diesel motor put into a 1/2, midsize SUV is not an ideal thing. They were just not designed to be there and the car/ truck was not designed to take it. Does it make more power than a 300tdi? Of course it does but what happens when something breaks. Youve got a hybrid and there are issues in that by itself.

It can be. The VW diesel I own have no sealing whatsovever to the timing case. The timing belt covers are plastic, with no seals and just quickly clip on. For off road use, this would not work as the first big mud hole or water crossing and the timing belt would eat itself.

This is true but not his argument. If a 1.9 was used, Im sure that a sheetmetal cover could easily be fabricated to cover the belt and protect it.

 

[David Harris]

Yes, that was built, sold, then sold again and now I believe it is laid up in someones garage with transmission difficulties. He has a build thread on Pirate I believe and you can search it out and youll find that it was no easy task. In comparison, a motor that was meant to be in there, with a kit available that allows the stock V8 mount locations to be kept making the motor a drop in proposition, and if you source the diesel trans crossmember, it is that much easier. Each motor has its pluses and minuses but for me, the ease of installation, ability for it to easily work with equipment already in the truck and the lack of need to make serious changes makes the 300tdi the best option for me. Also, pointing out that in Europe, where a diesel motor is ubiquitous and can be had in just about any guise and displacement you desire, is also not worthy of mentioning in point. These 1 ton diesel motors are popular here in the US because there are no other choices available. If the VM motors used by Jeep or the MB motors used in the Sprinter werent so damned expensive, theyd be in more midsize SUVs like a Disco. People use these tall and heavy motors because that is what is cheaply available, not because they are the best option.

Whether the VW motor is a car motor or not is not the issue. Most Rover stuff is, after all, car sourced, and most diesels used in SUV applications, are chain driven, not gear driven. The tensioner was the problem and that was redesigned making it not that much of an issue. The thing with reading forums and what is written there is people who have problems are the ones that usually post up which skews the numbers. So, with that said, do you really think that the belt is that much of an issue? I dont.

Thanks for the tip on the Pirate thread. I'll try to find that.

My point wasn't that diesels are more ubiquitous in Europe than in the US. It's that people find the 300 Tdi underpowered for their uses and seek to change them out for more powerful alternatives, such as V8's. If you read the Land Rover forums in Africa, they often do the same thing there.

As far as dropping a diesel into a Disco using the V8 mounts and not moving them, it is my understanding that to do this correctly, the diesel mounts sit farther forward by a few inches than the V8, and a different version of both the auto and the manual is required, which are geared to suit the diesel and have different bell-housing patterns. If a manual is used, it employs a different mount which replaces the crossmember of the NAS spec ones. The NAS chassis lacks the proper accommodation for this mount, so it must be customized. Of course if you are switching from auto to manual, then there's that whole conversion process as well. There's a full write-up on this at the East Coast Rovers site, if you haven't read it already . . . Here's the link:

http://www.eastcoastrover.com/Discotech.html

As the above posters have mentioned, in a Defender the 300 Tdi power is OK, but in a Disco or RR, which have higher running weights, the 300 Tdi is marginal. The 300 Tdi is not a car sourced engine, the TD5 is, which is where LR has been heading the last few years, with consequences. The 300 Tdi is a great motor, and is mechanically injected, which is good for overlanding, but it's safe to say that the majority of 300 Tdi owners would have mightily preferred that LR build the 300 Tdi with a chain or gear drive instead of a belt.

 

[David Harris]

The D2 in that link has an NV3500, not a 4500. There has since been quite a few problems with the gear train. If you really start to look around, you will see that most people that have done Cummins conversions have has reliability issue outside of the engine, caused by the engine.... It can be done well, but it is not as simple as some people think.

The problem then is that the NV3500 is too light a transmission for the diesel and vehicle weights involved. The Isuzu 4BD1T has been installed in Series and Defender builds behind the NV4500 with good results. Also, I believe the 4BD1T was even a LR factory option in Australia for years in the Defender before LR came out with the 200 Tdi. Correct me if I am wrong. Cummins is a different motor with a higher power rating than the Isuzu. The LT230 can stand up to the Isuzu or Cummins with no problem, but the stock LR axle shafts, which are marginal in a stock truck, are no match for the torque. So these too have to be upgraded. There's plenty of aftermarket support for that and it is required for serious off road use anyway. Ditto the driveshafts. The LR frame is plenty strong for the Isuzu or Cummins.

Bottom line is that the 300 Tdi is easier and works fine, but if you want to create a stronger set-up, with greater longevity, for extended expedition use with heavy loads, then the Isuzu could be a good alternative to consider, better than a Cummins by virtue of its more flexible rev range. And it has already been done by LR in Australia.

 

[David Harris]

This is true but not his argument. If a 1.9 was used, Im sure that a sheetmetal cover could easily be fabricated to cover the belt and protect it.

A 1.9 car engine in a LR expedition vehicle?