Maximus Ram
Expedition Leader
wow, from the syncro pics, it looks as if the only damage would have been for the drivers mirror, but the spot took out the windshield.
Big THANK YOU to the Hollister Overland team!
- Thread starter Scott Brady
- Start date
Mr. Leary
Glamping Excursionaire
There was body damage on the rolled side, but surprisingly little... the van held up pretty well.
Martyn
Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
Not something you see very often, a trailer being towed through an obstacle course.
Justin's main issue was with the bike rack on the back of the trailer, it was slightly wider than both the JK and the trailer.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWY99M7tNRk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWY99M7tNRk[/ame]
Justin's main issue was with the bike rack on the back of the trailer, it was slightly wider than both the JK and the trailer.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWY99M7tNRk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWY99M7tNRk[/ame]
jon_slider
New member
I was Bills passenger on the way up Truck Hill. I got out when the axle broke and he stopped..
> looks like it is about time to add proper steering while reversing to the training schedule (most likely the cause of this ooops)
I dont think Bill lacks any reverse driving skill, he knows how to back down in Reverse Gear. and fwiw, I have seen him turn around on Truck Hill before, although below the halfway up mark, in an area that is less steep than where we stopped near the top..
imo, the problem was that when he tried to back down, since his driver rear axle was broken, his passenger rear axle provided more drag, which moved the rear of the van off the fall line, to climbers right of the hill.
Bill then decided to Turn Around! And I was too wimpy to shout NO! Instead I feebly communicated that his driver rear was going to drop in a hole, and his his passenger front wheel was already in the air. I said, "I dont think you should go".. instead of saying STOP!.. very poor spotting on my part..
I tried to get Bill to steer to passenger side and continue backing down, but odds are, he could not control the drift.. at the time when he stopped with the rear off the fall line, the front wheels were pointed straight up the hill..
In retrospect, the only option would have been for Bill to stay still, either by switching feet on the brake pedal periodically while waiting for help, or better yet, If I had the presence of mind to anchor him to a Bush.. assuming he had a strap that would reach..
Hence, the best suggestion Ive heard, is to carry a winchline extension, and a passenger with the presence of mind to hook it to a bush.. or carry a pull pal..
> looks like it is about time to add proper steering while reversing to the training schedule (most likely the cause of this ooops)
I dont think Bill lacks any reverse driving skill, he knows how to back down in Reverse Gear. and fwiw, I have seen him turn around on Truck Hill before, although below the halfway up mark, in an area that is less steep than where we stopped near the top..
imo, the problem was that when he tried to back down, since his driver rear axle was broken, his passenger rear axle provided more drag, which moved the rear of the van off the fall line, to climbers right of the hill.
Bill then decided to Turn Around! And I was too wimpy to shout NO! Instead I feebly communicated that his driver rear was going to drop in a hole, and his his passenger front wheel was already in the air. I said, "I dont think you should go".. instead of saying STOP!.. very poor spotting on my part..
I tried to get Bill to steer to passenger side and continue backing down, but odds are, he could not control the drift.. at the time when he stopped with the rear off the fall line, the front wheels were pointed straight up the hill..
In retrospect, the only option would have been for Bill to stay still, either by switching feet on the brake pedal periodically while waiting for help, or better yet, If I had the presence of mind to anchor him to a Bush.. assuming he had a strap that would reach..
Hence, the best suggestion Ive heard, is to carry a winchline extension, and a passenger with the presence of mind to hook it to a bush.. or carry a pull pal..
Dave Bennett
Adventurist
Yup. Very hard compacted soil around there that we could barely drive rebar stakes into... ugghh.
Patman
Explorer
Most of the off trail/non campsite ground is pretty accepting of a pullpal. Campsite ground might as well be concrete.
Dave Bennett
Adventurist
The area where we set up the Trophy obstacle course was particularly compacted, just like truck hill and the other trails.
Mr. Leary
Glamping Excursionaire
Good to know, but in that particular situation I think if you were going to anchor off trail, you would be better off anchoring to a bush then in the ground. I'm just worried about lateral force that would be applied, since the fall line runs at an angle to the line that would anchor the truck. A bush would seem to be less vulnerable to lateral forces then a plow.
4x4abc
Adventurer
no hard feelings here
the position of the rolled vehicle and the position of the front wheels indicate bad steering.
I watched Bill after the rescue backing down from his next (failed) hill climb. His steering action was the worst I have seen in a long time. I pulled him up to make things easier.
No bad feelings here. There is always room to learn something new or to improve on your skills. That's why I attend a different 4x4 school/seminar every year - to see where I can improve.
This community and this forum are great tools for all to learn. Isn't that why we are here?
the position of the rolled vehicle and the position of the front wheels indicate bad steering.
I watched Bill after the rescue backing down from his next (failed) hill climb. His steering action was the worst I have seen in a long time. I pulled him up to make things easier.
No bad feelings here. There is always room to learn something new or to improve on your skills. That's why I attend a different 4x4 school/seminar every year - to see where I can improve.
This community and this forum are great tools for all to learn. Isn't that why we are here?
Patman
Explorer
When using a pullpal for a multidirectional snatch block pull, you just have to make sure it is positioned correctly. As long as the "spade" is properly positioned inbetween the two cable runs it will balance. The pullpal see's it as a straight line pull. It only becomes an issue if you do a straight pull first, then reposition to a lateral pull and fail to reposition the pullpal.
As for Bill's steering. We all learn. Better to make a poor choice when there is help around. Turning around on any hill is a pretty bad choice in any situation. Turning around on "Truck Hill" is a bad choice in a world of REALLY bad choices. But we have all made them. I'm very happy he is ok, and it was just an excercise in vehicle recovery, and not just a "recovery".
If anyone noticed the Hill Climb about 100 yards to the right of Truck hill, it was closed after one to many bad choices caused more than sheet metal damage.
Live and learn, I hope Bill is back on the trail soon, not wheeling due to your own mistake is a bad place to be, speaking from experiance.:Wow1:
Mr. Leary
Glamping Excursionaire
All I'm saying is... if you are dragging a strap over there to attach to a pullpal, you might as well attach it to the base of the bushes that would be on either side of the pullpal when planted. One less point of possible failure.
jon_slider
New member
> I'm still not sure a pullpal would have done the trick.
> A bush would seem to be less vulnerable to lateral forces then a plow.
I agree planting a pull pall on truck hill is a non starter.. but since you proved bushes on the side of Truck Hill will hold a Van (to my great surprise).. I would imagine a pull pall would work on the terrain flanking Truck Hill.. And agree using a bush as a backup to the pullpal, or to a second bush, is good redundancy..
> the position of the rolled vehicle and the position of the front wheels indicate bad steering.
I believe you might be mistaken.
When Bill first started backing down, his front wheels were pointed straight up Truck Hill. The rear of the van began to skid to climbers right. The Driver Rear CV was broken. I believe this is what made his passenger rear pull towards the side hill.
Bill stopped at that point, not yet rolled over, but passenger front in the air. His front wheels were still pointed straight up the hill.. So not sure I understand why you find fault with his steering..
Once he tried to turn around, yes, his front wheels were turned to passenger side, and that is what you saw when you arrived at the scene with the van already laying on its side.
My point being, I wanted Bill to steer to driver side, in an attempt to bring the rear of the van back to the fall line.. Bill was not willing, I was not insistent enough.. But you all probably realize that once a Vehicle drifts sideways going backwards, the front wheels dont do much more than skid when you turn them..
imo, the one thing that might have made a difference, would have been for Bill to attempt to drive forward, to realign the rear of the van to the fall line, before continuing to back down..
clearly turning around was a bad decision..
> I watched Bill after the rescue backing down from his next (failed) hill climb.
Sorry to be pedantic, but, I dont understand how Bill was going to have much luck climbing or backing down any hill, with a broken driver rear CV.. going forward uphill in that situation makes the rear unstable, and backing down there are similar issues..
> His steering action was the worst I have seen in a long time.
Im pretty sure Bill knows how to steer, I think the steering problems you witnessed were caused by the broken CV and 3 wheel traction... I dont think you drove the van in that condition.. and I dont think you would have steered any better. Im pretty sure though, that you would not have tried to turn around, but you still would have ended up drifting off the fall line if you tried backing down..
The more I think about it, I think the decision to back down was doomed, and I wish Bill had just kept his foot on the brake, switching feet, until help arrived.. or better yet, I wish I had anchored him to a bush!
thanks for the education and the debriefing, I appreciate learning that the bushes on the side of Truck Hill can anchor a vehicle.
> A bush would seem to be less vulnerable to lateral forces then a plow.
I agree planting a pull pall on truck hill is a non starter.. but since you proved bushes on the side of Truck Hill will hold a Van (to my great surprise).. I would imagine a pull pall would work on the terrain flanking Truck Hill.. And agree using a bush as a backup to the pullpal, or to a second bush, is good redundancy..
> the position of the rolled vehicle and the position of the front wheels indicate bad steering.
I believe you might be mistaken.
When Bill first started backing down, his front wheels were pointed straight up Truck Hill. The rear of the van began to skid to climbers right. The Driver Rear CV was broken. I believe this is what made his passenger rear pull towards the side hill.
Bill stopped at that point, not yet rolled over, but passenger front in the air. His front wheels were still pointed straight up the hill.. So not sure I understand why you find fault with his steering..
Once he tried to turn around, yes, his front wheels were turned to passenger side, and that is what you saw when you arrived at the scene with the van already laying on its side.
My point being, I wanted Bill to steer to driver side, in an attempt to bring the rear of the van back to the fall line.. Bill was not willing, I was not insistent enough.. But you all probably realize that once a Vehicle drifts sideways going backwards, the front wheels dont do much more than skid when you turn them..
imo, the one thing that might have made a difference, would have been for Bill to attempt to drive forward, to realign the rear of the van to the fall line, before continuing to back down..
clearly turning around was a bad decision..
> I watched Bill after the rescue backing down from his next (failed) hill climb.
Sorry to be pedantic, but, I dont understand how Bill was going to have much luck climbing or backing down any hill, with a broken driver rear CV.. going forward uphill in that situation makes the rear unstable, and backing down there are similar issues..
> His steering action was the worst I have seen in a long time.
Im pretty sure Bill knows how to steer, I think the steering problems you witnessed were caused by the broken CV and 3 wheel traction... I dont think you drove the van in that condition.. and I dont think you would have steered any better. Im pretty sure though, that you would not have tried to turn around, but you still would have ended up drifting off the fall line if you tried backing down..
The more I think about it, I think the decision to back down was doomed, and I wish Bill had just kept his foot on the brake, switching feet, until help arrived.. or better yet, I wish I had anchored him to a bush!
thanks for the education and the debriefing, I appreciate learning that the bushes on the side of Truck Hill can anchor a vehicle.
