good theory as to how it missed the mark.

[luckyjoe]

…but lets be honest, they are not using the engine because it was best suited to the job....it was available at the right price, but it was never and has never been designed for how it is being used.

This is how the automotive market works. Case in point, Toyota seems to think their 4cyl+electric motor is a good idea but I will not buy one. What about all those aftermarket LS swaps?

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

I not a fan of the engine either, but no one ************** when the Merc put 212hp straight 6 car engine in the G, or the v8 from a car in the G. Do you really think if there's an internal issue with this bimmer motor, and g 500 in the middle of Uruguay, that it's going to be any easier to find a skilled mechanic, or the wait for parts to be shipped will be any shorter if you owned the G? I mean, people here see a unicat MAN for sale and they think it's cool and never criticize it for parts availability, but this thing uses BMW's most common engine architecture and I'm supposed to be afraid to drive it outside of the city limits.

There's no shortage of legitimate criticisms of what came out of the oven here, but, much of it is turning into hyperbole unless the only acceptable answer to world travel is Toyota.

I have never seen a G outside of city limits.

As someone who works in the auto industry the thought of one coming in makes me cringe. Nobody will have anything for it in town.

Kinda like Beemer, might as well drag it back up to the city.

Parts will be somewhat better for Toyota but yeah, still an hour from a dealer.

In the us in rural areas... imports are not well supported at all.

A Ineos while cool... might as well be a Romulan Warbird.

Not trying to be elitist or whatever, I would love to sneak up on a old Discovery but it's the same story. I will either I will either have to figure out to do my own work on it (which wouldnt bother me) or I will have to pay someone else to figure it out.

Imo for long distance offroad travel the old adage of "when I'm Rome do what the Romans do" rings especially true.

Grenadier looks cool and imo has a ton of potential, it is going to have to gain a lot of traction before I would make the jump even if I had the money for it.

 

[nickw]

This is how the automotive market works. Case in point, Toyota seems to think their 4cyl+electric motor is a good idea but I will not buy one. What about all those aftermarket LS swaps?

Not trying to be smart but what about them? The LS engine is designed, tested, engineered and used in HD trucks and at least in NA has massive parts availability. I'd say in the middle of nowhere, even SA / Africa when you have to get parts shipped in, you'd probably stand a better chance of fixing a non-turbo LS in the bush than anything B58 related....

 

[2.ooohhh]

Kinda
Not trying to be elitist or whatever, I would love to sneak up on a old Discovery but it's the same story. I will either I will either have to figure out to do my own work on it (which wouldnt bother me) or I will have to pay someone else to figure it out.

Imo for long distance offroad travel the old adage of "when I'm Rome do what the Romans do" rings especially true.

Grenadier looks cool and imo has a ton of potential, it is going to have to gain a lot of traction before I would make the jump even if I had the money for it.

I jumped into a D1 when I found a rust free example a couple years back and it’s the furthest build from an import I’ve ever seen imported.

Nearly everything in the engine is readily available and CHEAP due to the rover V8s Buick origins, and the axles are beyond simple utilizing the same inboard and outboard bearings at all four corners.

As a former BMW tech, who cast off Toyota after their frame rust issues I look forward to the grenadier even with the BMW bits as they require service MUCH less frequently and much less in depth than some BMWs of old.

 

[nickw]

I jumped into a D1 when I found a rust free example a couple years back and it’s the furthest build from an import I’ve ever seen imported.

Nearly everything in the engine is readily available and CHEAP due to the rover V8s Buick origins, and the axles are beyond simple utilizing the same inboard and outboard bearings at all four corners.

As a former BMW tech, who cast off Toyota after their frame rust issues I look forward to the grenadier even with the BMW bits as they require service MUCH less frequently and much less in depth than some BMWs of old.

It's always a tradeoff.....service frequency vs serviceability. Doesn't the engine have to be dropped on the B58 to do a timing chain?

 

[2.ooohhh]

It's always a tradeoff.....service frequency vs serviceability. Doesn't the engine have to be dropped on the B58 to do a timing chain?

To replace the timing chain the engine and trans have to be split, though that’s very highly unlikely to need to ever be done in the field. The chain on my oldest M50 is at 256k miles now and the only reason it even got a set of chain guides at 160k was b/c I pulled the head anyway to bump the compression before dropping the engine in a different project. That’s a nearly 30 year old engine at this point that’s given absolute fantastic service with proper maintenance.

Watching the B58 tear down videos it shouldn’t be too bad to get into the chains on the gren, time will tell if it’s easier to split the driveline in situ or if it makes more sense to pull the assembly.

Now on the Supra, it’s coming out every time, just due to the space constraints on that chassis.

 

[luckyjoe]

Not trying to be elitist or whatever, I would love to sneak up on a old Discovery but it's the same story. I will either I will either have to figure out to do my own work on it (which wouldnt bother me) or I will have to pay someone else to figure it out.

There at least seems to be a lot of interest from LR owners, and we have a history of making things work well past their expiration date. Happy to take that path if necessary.

Not trying to be smart but what about them? The LS engine is designed, tested, engineered and used in HD trucks and at least in NA has massive parts availability. I'd say in the middle of nowhere, even SA / Africa when you have to get parts shipped in, you'd probably stand a better chance of fixing a non-turbo LS in the bush than anything B58 related....

Just pointing out it is similar in that you now have an non-standard LS installation (like a non-standard B58 installation).

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

At this point non standard LS installations are almost more standard that standard LS installations...

 

[nickw]

There at least seems to be a lot of interest from LR owners, and we have a history of making things work well past their expiration date. Happy to take that path if necessary.

Just pointing out it is similar in that you now have an non-standard LS installation (like a non-standard B58 installation).

Fair - I was just pointing out the LS was designed for severe duty vs the B58 that was not along with the LS being a relatively simple design all things considered and GM designs the engine + trans (with their crate programs) to be used in non OEM rigs which in theory would make it pretty simple solution on paper....

My buddy has a brand new Suburban w/6.2L and it only gets a couple MPG less than our X5 w/B58....

 

[nickw]

To replace the timing chain the engine and trans have to be split, though that’s very highly unlikely to need to ever be done in the field. The chain on my oldest M50 is at 256k miles now and the only reason it even got a set of chain guides at 160k was b/c I pulled the head anyway to bump the compression before dropping the engine in a different project. That’s a nearly 30 year old engine at this point that’s given absolute fantastic service with proper maintenance.

Watching the B58 tear down videos it shouldn’t be too bad to get into the chains on the gren, time will tell if it’s easier to split the driveline in situ or if it makes more sense to pull the assembly.

Now on the Supra, it’s coming out every time, just due to the space constraints on that chassis.

Understood - just saying it's not going to be done by an average or even above average mechanic and nobody would recommend pushing them to double + service limits on a rig like this if you are truly driving it in remote areas....you'll want to stay on top of recommended service intervals, or at least I would. I'd also think a rig possibly driven at high capacity, in loose soft sand other other difficult conditions, would put even more strain on an engine given the engine was designed and is used in lightweight road cars vs a heavy offroad vehicle.

We must know service requirements by now? People have them....what does Ineos say?

 

[Sid Post]

It certainly missed the mark here in the U.K.
Which given the company boss lived here, is rather embarrassing.

It’s too heavy to gain commercial tax benefits so it’s a utility truck that can’t be used as a utility truck…
You need a payload of one tonne for that.
The Hilux, Dmax, Ranger and even the new Defender 90/110 commercials all meet it.

Probably explains that so far, they have sold 583 in the U.K., 62 of them are on sale on autotrader, many with low/delivery miles.

Too early to call it a sales flop, but it’s definitely not a strong opening for it.

Is the UK really the 'primary market' for the Grenadier? The EU is likely more of a primary market for this vehicle and, then I would say the USA follows closely behind with its projected 7,000 vehicles from INEOS this year in our market.

With ~60 sold in Dallas so far, 583 in the whole of the UK doesn't sound too impressive or significant! The UK and a lot of the EU will be more 'Pavement Princess' Land Rover oriented IMHO for the Walter Mitty owners and others that just want the image in their 'mall crawler'!

 

[Sid Post]

Serious question - in the UK, is the IG seen as an advantage over the current D90/110? What is the general sentiment?

I know here in the US we wax on about solid axle overland SUV's but you guys have had those for years - not sure the IG would scratch that itch in the UK the same way it would in the US.

I looked at the Land Rover Defenders and to be honest they are more of a Lexus competitor than a real overlander option today. Personally, I think the new upcoming Toyota Land Cruiser/Prado is a better option than the Land Cruisers of today for a general utility or an overlander vehicle.

 

[Sid Post]

Every new muscle car/offroader/EV that comes out with a “first edition “- and they all do the last few years, is selling out quick. That’s who these buyers are- I doubt it has any long term sales here.

USA domestic options are limited which is why you see so many imports of older Land Cruisers and Land Rover. Then add companies like AEV to mix. I really think INEOS hit a sweet spot of non-mass market vehicles similar to other 'niche' vehicles sold in North America.

That's why you see things like the new Chevrolet Colorado Bison and the 2024/25 Land Cruiser coming to the USA.

 

[plainjaneFJC]

USA domestic options are limited which is why you see so many imports of older Land Cruisers and Land Rover. Then add companies like AEV to mix. I really think INEOS hit a sweet spot of non-mass market vehicles similar to other 'niche' vehicles sold in North America.

That's why you see things like the new Chevrolet Colorado Bison and the 2024/25 Land Cruiser coming to the USA.

Are they limited though? I have started to look at Superduty singles cabs. Solid axles, rear locker, amazing payload, good reliability in the gas versions, I don’t think a foreign truck matches it.

 

[Sid Post]

Now in the USA you’ll have different rules etc so that won’t be a worry and will explain the better sales of it.
The question is when those 7000 potential sales are done, will they be able to sell more. Or is it like Lotus who had a busy first year with a model in the USA, but once everyone who wanted one, got one. No one else cared.

Fair comment. With all the people bidding good late 90's vintage Land Cruisers and Land Rovers into the $60K and up ranges these days, along with the huge pent-up demand for travel away from crowds in general, vehicles like this are really hot right now whether a 4x4 pickup or SUV or, even things like the Mazda CX-50 and various Subaru's are selling really well.

As hard as it is to believe, I'm seeing people paying $20,000 over sticker for Ford Broncos today!

What will a 2024/25 Toyota Land Cruiser sell for on the street? At ~$55K for the based model (projected), and some price gouging disguised as dealer window tint for $10K or $20K, and the Grenadier price is easily in-line something like that.

The Chevrolet Colorado Bison is $63,000 so, is ~$73,000 for a Grenadier really that far out of the mainstream options? It is also a lot cheaper than the Land Cruiser Defender I have seen recently and easily beats the Lexus options as well. I'll omit the BMW, Porsche, and similar options as I don't see them being competitors at all.