The Gubblemobile- Series III from hell.

[Alaska Mike]

As I said in the Rover Fever thread, I bought this '73 Land Rover Series III SWB for $500 from a friend. I did a quick once-over, checking the frame at various points and looking at the bulkhead to see what was wrong. It doesn't run (shop rags stuffed in the spark plug ports and the carb) and it's missing a few engine parts, but it has a nice hard top and the body panels are in pretty good shape. Since I've always lusted after Series Land Rovers, I jumped at the chance. Foolish, foolish boy.

I started pulling it apart on Friday. The hardtop, tub, and floorpans came out easily, and I was really getting into the swing of things. Sure, I started noticing a lot of rust in spots on the frame, with a couple of the outriggers and the rear crossmember suffering from some serious cancer. I was seriously contemplating a galvanized frame anyway. I figure the rust I don't see is much worse than the rust that I do see. I don't like suprises- especially on the trail. I did the math on what the reapir pieces would cost, and an entire frame looks like a better option.

Then I got to the dash and the bulkhead, and things started to go seriously downhill. The channel that the windshield sits in rusted away on the passenger side, which then allowed water to enter the heater vents and start really doing some damage. That section is sealed up pretty tight, so I couldn't get in there to do an assessment of the overall carnage, but I'd say that there's a good chance the bulkhead is beyond repair. The door posts are starting to rust, and there are a couple other small sections that have a little too much ventillation. Time to look for a replacement- again beyond economical repair.

Just when I thought the worst was over, I find the front grill panel has cancer holes that were covered by the plastic Series III grill. Great.

Now I'm at the debating stage. So far my total investment is the initial purchase price and the time I spent so far taking it apart. I know of several people who want to buy parts off of this rig, which would recoup my purchase price plus a little more. Then I would just have to dispose of the carcass and begin again. However, there's this little voice inside the Rover that's calling to me to not give up and dive headfirst into the project. There's potential there. I can feel it.

So, I sit tonight in contemplation.

 

[Mercedesrover]

Sorry about the news. Pretty much what I expected you'd find.

From your previous post: With a bad frame and bulkhead you'll spend $5k in a heartbeat just getting it safe for the road. It just gets worse from there.

If a stockish 88" is what you're looking for, save up the bread and come down below and find one with a new, or at least decent frame. For $7k-$10k you can usually find yourself a pretty nice truck. Get the one up there for spares.

It's very easy to spend $10k rebuilding one of these trucks and you can spend $20k rebuilding one without too much effort too. Start talking about engine/drive train conversions and there goes another $5k. Trust me, I've been there. Heck, I'm there now!

If you've got patience, time and spare cash, sure, you can rebuild that truck. New frame, rebuild the bulkhead or buy a new Defender bulkhead and start from there. I'm building a 109 right now that is in worse shape than that truck. But again, it takes patience, time and cash....All in large amounts.

jim

 

[DaktariEd]

Bummer!
Sorry to hear about that.
Sounds like parting it out or a large cash investment are the only two really viable options right now.
All things considered, there are probably quite a few Series Rovers out there in much better shape that you will find with time.
Good luck, keep us posted.

 

[xcmountain80]

Yeah I here ya we have 67 International Scout 800A and in the same boat though it ran when we bought it. I've started the parting out will dispose of the carcass, its very sad to say the least. She wants us to move forward in the restoration but I just don't see it. My brother is having a hard time letting go and says he can do it for $5k I know it will be more like $10k.

Aaron

 

[seriessearcher]

Rule of 3

It will cost 3 times what you think
It will take three times as long
You will get 1/3 rd of what you put into it when you try and sell

That said I have an 88 and just purchased a basket case Dormobile. Which once I have in hand will join the expedition ranks here on this board with a build up story. No as custom as Jims as he has mad skills, but it should be fun.

There is a great website called Guns and Rovers which has had a few right ups on bulkhead repair. If you like I can find the posts, or just troll on there for a while getting ideas.

http://p200.ezboard.com/bgunsandrovers

Good luck eith way you go. It is a fun ride when you have a Series.

 

[Alaska Mike]

I'll probably do some pricing to get an estimate of what I'm looking at. I planning on a long-term project, and this certainly qualifies. We'll see...

This certainly isn't an investment. I generally keep my 4x4 vehicles for a long time (ask Scott). The original concept for the rig was a Rover body on a hodge-podge of more reliable/better performing parts. That hasn't changed. A quick, highball-ish estimate puts the rig in the range of $10,000-$12,000 when "complete" (what rig ever is?), which includes a galvanized frame, bulkhead, improved engine with a beefier drivetrain, cleaned-up interior, and a few other mods (power steering, upgraded axles...). I don't think that's out of line for a completely rebuilt Series rig, even with the non-standard parts.

Right now it's scheduled to be a two year project to get it back on the road, but that timeline could change depending how parts fall in line. I'm in no hurry, so I can wait for deals to fall into my lap. Still, the question is, is it worth it?

Thoughts?
-Mike

 

[seriessearcher]

Look at Jim's 88 Rover rebuild

Go to http://www.seriestrek.com/ to see what can be done. It sounds close to what you want, but maybe different parts.

 

[Roemer1]

Alaska Mike,

An old rusty rover is just a soul in need of saving. Breathing new life into a series is only a waste if you don't find any enjoyment along the way.

Of course, I have been there. Some times I fixed the rig and sometimes I didn't. I think I lost money every time regardless but some of the best times I remember were spent in the restoration.


Britt

 

[Alaska Mike]

I'm kinda in the "blank canvas" mindset right now. After the shock of just how corroded the bulkhead was wore off a bit, I started assessing where I was and where I wanted to be. If I can source a good bulkhead for a decent price, I can slowly start adding components over time. My creative side is seeing all kinds of possibilities, but my practical side is seeing bills and a lot of time wrenching, plus some heartache when things don't go well.

I don't know. Monday I'll start working the phones to see how these latest relevations affect my bottom line.

 

[Alaska Mike]

My weatherman is a liar.

Well, today and possibly the the next few months are a bust. I knew it was coming, but when I looked out the window, there it was- snow. Coming down in big flakes. Imagine that. In Alaska. Where's Al Gore when you need him? There's not much so far (about 6"), so hopefully it will stop soon so I can shovel the Rover off. At least I covered everything with tarps before it hit.

The tub is sitting off to the side on blocks, so I may decide to put the hardtop back on it to clear some space in the garage.

With current condtions, all that's left to do is dream and begin the slow process of aquiring parts. Yes, I'm leaning towards going through with this madness.

 

[kd_walmsley]

Mike,

If you are serious about putting your 88 together I will have a radiator grill panel and front apron panel for you in June. I am installing a larger diesel in my 109 this spring and going to a 90/110 hood and grill panel. My 109 grill and apron are in great shape, you will just need to cover the shipping. Sorry I can't help sooner.

Cheers,

Kevin

 

[Alaska Mike]

Man, I love these ExPo guys.

Kevin-
That would be awesome. I was wondering what to do about the front grill. Your timeframe is just about right, because the snow won't be off the Rover until late March, and I'll be stripping it to put stuff on the new frame as the snow recedes. If I'm lucky I'll be thinking about a new grill about that time.
-Mike

 

[TeriAnn]

Still, the question is, is it worth it?
Thoughts?
-Mike

Always lots of thoughts.

Sanity is a much overrated concept

Worth has many meanings only very few of which can be quantified.

If you are asking worth as defined by the amount of money that a buyer and seller both agree an object is worth, the answer is no. In the US the SIII with its big plastic instrument panel never seems to be quite as desirable and an earlier IIA with a metal instrument panel and the resale value of Series Land Rovers is on the decrease in North America. Toyota and Jeep are advertising off road capabilities while Land Rover North America is advertising taking Land Rovers to the Opera and driving within cities. New enthusiasts are going to the Jeeps & Toys.

If you are asking if the dreams and reality will be worth the effort and money you sink into the vehicle? Only you can answer that and sometimes only after a decade or two. Anything you do will likely have teething issues that will cause frustrations while you locate and fix them. So much of that is attitude. If you end up blaming the vehicle for any problem you encounter, then no it will not be worth the effort. If you face issues as a blameless opportunity for making the vehicle even better suited to your particular needs, it will likely be worth it. In the long run. So much depends upon attitude and the value you place upon dreams and memories.

I am deeply indebted to my Land Rover for all the memories and I still owe mine more than the money and effort I have put into her during the last 29 years. For me the value is in nontangibles built up over decades.

I guess it depends upon a mix of how much of a dreamer you are and how practical you are. My personal belief is that reality is what you make of it. Dreams and memories are among my most valued possessions.

BTW, check Wise Owl in BC to see if they have a used bulkhead in reasonable shape. SII through Defender can be made to fit. If you are doing a gearbox & powerplant swap you might be better off importing a Defender bulkhead, tunnel and floorboards from a UK wrecking yard. Most American gearboxes are wider than a Series gearbox and the Defender bulkhead's indentation for the rear of the engine will give you more options without cutting. Don't forget there have been a lot of Land Rover variants made over the last 50 years since the SII was introduced and most all the parts are bolt on or close to it.

 

[Alaska Mike]

I've discovered that Series bulkheads are quite rare in the states, although I'm trying to source one from British Northwest. I was hoping for a Series IIA bulkhead (much less junk), but they are waaaaaaayyyyy more expensive and rare. They're going to look at what they have in the yard and possibly send me a sound upper bulkhead that I can repair/modify at will.

The other option is to pull my existing bulkhead off and start cutting and welding. Since I don't require it to be original, I can get creative with the dash. It would take a lot of work, but it may be the cheapest option. It would have to be media blasted or tanked to see what what was left.

A Defender bulkhead would be an interesting proposition, but not particularly viable in my situation. It was going to be almost $4000 to purchase and ship a Defender bulkhead to Alaska from the UK- sight unseen.

The real goal here is to get a structurally sound bulkhead that allows all of the original parts to be bolted on with some degree of alignment. Big concerns are the windshield and the doors. A good amount of the original or reproduction sheetmetal will have to be used, as I can't reproduce the more round lines. The interior can be done very simply with flat steel and square tube cage to emulate a Series II dash.

We'll see where the pricing falls.

 

[kd_walmsley]

Mike,

The parts are yours. Make sure to send me a reminder so I can get them packaged in a timely manner. Which "round lines" on the bulkhead do you expect to be challenging? Remember that most of your Landy is modular. I imagine that working in your garage will become very difficult if not heated. So if you have a strong marriage/patient significant other consider disassembling you 88 now and working on the sub-assemblies inside, through the winter, before it is under 3 meters of snow. Do you need manuals, etc...?

A friendly piece of advice I have often found helpful when working on my 109:

Thou shalt follow the Wisdom of the Green Rover and all repairs shall render unto thee new and fascinating challenges.

Cheers,

Kevin