While on vacation......

[ThundahBeagle]

Hold up. A guy on the internet sees something, makes an assumption about alleged sighting. You then defend his story because it fits your narrative.

You can’t have tribalism without the absence of critical thinking.

The worst part is OPs broad accusations about rural peoples intelligence. So backward they can’t understand technology? That parts ok though.

See, you are trying to make this about something its not. You are obfuscating to spin the conversation into a different dynamic...

There was no insult to the intelligence of rural people here that I read. Plain and simple there are fewer charging stations per mile in rural areas, greater distance between those stations, and therefore a larger degree of "charging insecurity", or as I like to call it, "ash pucker factor" due to the decreased practicality of plug in electric vehicles in a rural setting

By twisting the other person's words trying to insert an issue where it didn't previously exist, you attempt to divide the reader against this person's opinion based on your false accusation of a condition not proven to exist. Rather tribal of you, really, and undercutting your own argument.

FWIW I'm interested in the Rivian and want to see what Canoo comes out with but oddly, GM Chevy Silvy / GMC Sierra EV is closest to its range estimate than anyone, and it's a good range. Too bad its really an Avalanche and people who actually work for a living can not fit existing tool boxes into, or Leer caps onto, the truck bed without specialized equipment or adapters

 

[life_w_vagabonds]

It’s called conversation- not hate, you just want one side commentary, this isn’t the view.

It’s not a conversation if you don’t stick around to respond. More like a drive-by

 

[ThundahBeagle]

350 miles at lets say 70 MPH average = 5 hrs of towing. You take a 10 minute fuel stop and then what... drive another 5 hrs non-stop and you do this frequently? No lunch break, bathroom stops or sightseeing? You're requirements are fringe and hardly represent the average driver, also sounds expensive ($3.44 national average x 40 gals = $137 per fuel stop).

The average person drives 40 miles per day, far less than even the shortest range EV. The majority of new vehicle buyers would be better off with an EV for a daily driver. EV's have almost no maintenance costs and are cheaper to fuel with a much more stable fuel costs over gas. On average people take less than 3 roadtrips per year, hardly a reason to daily drive a gas guzzling beast.




This is pretty inline with how I view it as well. I love my Chevy Bolt for around town and short trips but obviously it has it's short comings but the amount of money I've saved by not daily driving my Tacoma is no small thing.

All good points, too. But the "average person"...what's that? Most people live in the cities - by definition high population areas. City driving is supposedly better in an EV. I've got some coworkers who fit your less than 40 miles per day scenario perfectly. They have electric or plug in hybrids. It works great for them, as they live less than 20 miles from work or have installed a charger at home or play musical chairs with the (currently) free chargers in the work parking lot. (CURRENTly...see what I did there?).

For the guy who charges at work, he's excited it's free. Only, it's not free...he's just not the one directly paying for it. For the coworker who had a charger installed at home, it works out great and they say it's not terribly expensive. In that case, it's less than 10 miles from home to work.

But at what cost? Many EV's are crazy expensive to purchase. Low end ones often starting at what high end ICE vehicles go for. That makes it really hard for the average consumer.

Back to the OP, who feels EV is not a good fit for rural folks.

I drive 110 miles per day. Pretty much all highway miles but different levels of traffic. Some highway cruising, some highway but in traffic jams, and some suburban to agricultural areas on state or county roads. Not sure I could do an EV but I'm keeping my eyes open. A hybrid seems like a better option to me.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Battery tech as it stands is far more energy efficient than any internal combustion engine. If converting to equivalent units a gas truck getting 20mpg is getting .6mi/kwh (of the energy potential of gasoline) versus a Rivian R1T getting 2.5mi/kwh. It’s a matter of designing a battery that can accept high enough charge rates for long enough to allow for rapid recharging.




It’s not that simple though. Internal combustion is less efficient but it’s also much easier and more convenient for many uses than electric. Efficiency is only a small part of the picture.

Even if it’s only one week a year that you go into the Colorado backcountry it still isn’t cut and dry obvious answer. Quick numbers, an ICE F150, driven 15k miles at 20mpg and $4/gal costs $3k a year in fuel. A F150 Lightning at 2mi/kwh and $0.30/kw electric rates costs $2250 a year for electricity. Now add in renting a F150 for a week and there really isn’t much cost savings to be found.

Again good points. But it's about OVERALL efficiency.

How much does an entry level Ford Lightning cost? Today it's as low as $55k bit probably more...And an entry level Ford F150 ICE? $38k

Right now, that difference in price - almost $20 grand at the base level - obliterates any savings in fuel, at least at the Ford pickup truck level. Imagine switching to Rivian? That STARTS at $72k. Fug! I could almost buy TWO ice Ford F150's for that! Towing? Hell, hook up BOTH f150's and out tow the Rivian for your money's worth.

Some people can own and drive an ICE work truck trim for 10 years before that price difference starts biting against the cost of fuel.

And if I can only afford 1 vehicle and/or/but live in a "rural" area, chances are it wont be an EV. Between that initial outlay and Range Anxiety, who out in the boonies needs that hassle. It's more practical to go ICE or maybe even Hybrid

 

[86scotty]

I’m trying to think of an instance where someone would chose a tool or piece of equipment as inefficient as a combustion engine when there is another option. Other than nostalgia or honoring sunk costs.

I stumbled upon this thread, participated, and am now leaving. I have come away with my mind blown that anyone who has ever set foot outside of any decent sized city would think this way. I'm not sure what world you live in or what kind of people you think the Expedition Portal would be about. Overlanding, vehicle expeditions, remote off road travel, etc. are about self sufficiency and EV's don't currently fit that definition anywhere on the planet.....for more than a few hours of driving. I can only imagine the extra time it would take to attempt the Pan American by EV.

I'm done, no need to respond. You're dreaming if you think there are going to be charging stations along the Mojave trail, or in remote Alaska, or perhaps the whole entire continent of Africa or Australia in the next 10, 20, 50 years.

FWIW, I'd love to own an EV. They fit the use case of my wife. As a world traveler, preferrably by vehicle, I see no other use case that they fit.

Gotta run, just filled my tank in the time it took to post this. <5 minutes and I'm off and running for another few hundred miles.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Fair enough, I made an assumption about your usage but my point still stands that you don't represent the average usage. Not everyone hauls a 7 thousand pound trailer around forrest service roads 400 miles at a time and require a 10 minute refuel so they can keep going. I am a little jealous you get to though.



No one is forcing you to buy an EV, ICE cars will be around for a long time (your suburban being an example).

Funny I just looked through the first 3 pages of the other forums (Toyota, Ford, full size...) and didn't see any threads that straight up say they're terrible.

OP didnt say EVs are terrible. He said at this time they dont seem to work well for rural areas.

 

[NevadaLover]

No one is forcing you to buy an EV, ICE cars will be around for a long time (your suburban being an example).

Funny I just looked through the first 3 pages of the other forums (Toyota, Ford, full size...) and didn't see any threads that straight up say they're terrible.

Never said anyone was forcing an EV on me, I have repeatedly stated clearly that some users demand everyone buys an EV to replace our ICE rigs, and again there are no suitable EV alternatives to my rig!

And there is plenty of brand hate throughout this forum and every other forum, but the proponents of individual ICE brands aren't as adamant at vocal as 1 or 2 EV proponents are here on the portal.

 

[NevadaLover]

You’ve told us many time you aren’t interested in an EV, but you keep coming back to say it over and over.

And you keep whining and crying that EV's are perfectly acceptable and those of us without one are devils who are killing the planet, over and over again.

 

[life_w_vagabonds]

And you keep whining and crying that EV's are perfectly acceptable and those of us without one are devils who are killing the planet, over and over again.

I think EV content on Expo chaps **************** and you’re intentionally trying to make it intolerable to the average user.


For a subject you aren’t interested in, you’re certainly motivated to spend the time tilting at this windmill.

 

[Ex Animo]

All good points, too. But the "average person"...what's that? Most people live in the cities - by definition high population areas. City driving is supposedly better in an EV. I've got some coworkers who fit your less than 40 miles per day scenario perfectly. They have electric or plug in hybrids. It works great for them, as they live less than 20 miles from work or have installed a charger at home or play musical chairs with the (currently) free chargers in the work parking lot. (CURRENTly...see what I did there?).

For the guy who charges at work, he's excited it's free. Only, it's not free...he's just not the one directly paying for it. For the coworker who had a charger installed at home, it works out great and they say it's not terribly expensive. In that case, it's less than 10 miles from home to work.

But at what cost? Many EV's are crazy expensive to purchase. Low end ones often starting at what high end ICE vehicles go for. That makes it really hard for the average consumer.

Back to the OP, who feels EV is not a good fit for rural folks.

I drive 110 miles per day. Pretty much all highway miles but different levels of traffic. Some highway cruising, some highway but in traffic jams, and some suburban to agricultural areas on state or county roads. Not sure I could do an EV but I'm keeping my eyes open. A hybrid seems like a better option to me.

Good points, I was replying to NevadaLove saying, "Point is, EV vehicles are still leaps and bounds behind ICE vehicles in many of the metrics that users require their daily drivers to provide." When the average daily driver drives 30 miles a day their requirements are met. Average meaning that you driving 110 miles is unusual, you even state that some of your coworkers have much shorter commutes.

Given your 110 mile commute a EV may not be the best option for you, fair point. I will say that used EV's are fairly affordable (my 2020 Bolt cost $12K) and there are now several new options with 250 mile+ range for around $30-35K which isn't cheap but is far from the $90K a Rivian costs. If I were in you shoes I'd probably buy a well used Prius for $5-6K, pop a $4k re-built battery in it and drive it till the wheels fall off, they can usually go for 300K miles without much issue and you'd probably get 40ish MPG.

I stumbled upon this thread, participated, and am now leaving. I have come away with my mind blown that anyone who has ever set foot outside of any decent sized city would think this way. I'm not sure what world you live in or what kind of people you think the Expedition Portal would be about. Overlanding, vehicle expeditions, remote off road travel, etc. are about self sufficiency and EV's don't currently fit that definition anywhere on the planet.....for more than a few hours of driving. I can only imagine the extra time it would take to attempt the Pan American by EV.

I'm done, no need to respond. You're dreaming if you think there are going to be charging stations along the Mojave trail, or in remote Alaska, or perhaps the whole entire continent of Africa or Australia in the next 10, 20, 50 years.

FWIW, I'd love to own an EV. They fit the use case of my wife. As a world traveler, preferrably by vehicle, I see no other use case that they fit.

Gotta run, just filled my tank in the time it took to post this. <5 minutes and I'm off and running for another few hundred miles.

Way to get the last word in on your way out.

OP didnt say EVs are terrible. He said at this time they dont seem to work well for rural areas.

This was in reply to them justifying the anti-EV chat in the EV forum, I was pointing out that was mostly untrue. Name calling has also entered the chat.

NevadaLover, "P.S. a couple users here need to simply put on their grown up underwear and stop whining so bad, it's no different than the anti-toyota, ford or gm talk here, people like different things than you."

Never said anyone was forcing an EV on me, I have repeatedly stated clearly that some users demand everyone buys an EV to replace our ICE rigs, and again there are no suitable EV alternatives to my rig!

And there is plenty of brand hate throughout this forum and every other forum, but the proponents of individual ICE brands aren't as adamant at vocal as 1 or 2 EV proponents are here on the portal.

If users were demanding everyone buy an EV then yeah they were in the wrong, I agree but did they come into the ICE threads and start telling everyone this or was it in this forum that's for discussing EV's? Do you go into the Tacoma threads and tell everyone you'll never buy a Tacoma until it can tow 7K for 400 miles? I doubt it. You have clearly made your case that no EV fits your parameters for travel and I agree that is the case, we can all move on.

 

[NevadaLover]

I think EV content on Expo chaps **************** and you’re intentionally trying to make it intolerable to the average user.

View attachment 848190
For a subject you aren’t interested in, you’re certainly motivated to spend the time tilting at this windmill.

I have stated clear enough so even the most obtuse user here can understand, once the EV market matures enough that it meets my needs I will add one to my garage, and you have stated many times that you love them so everyone else including me should love them too!!

Well my requirements differ from yours and most others, I realize this fact but you obviously refuse to, so keep whining about not enough EV coverage here on the portal, the fact that the EV market doesn't yet cover the needs of most of us here eludes you but not the majority of us.

 

[NevadaLover]

Good points, I was replying to NevadaLove saying, "Point is, EV vehicles are still leaps and bounds behind ICE vehicles in many of the metrics that users require their daily drivers to provide." When the average daily driver drives 30 miles a day their requirements are met. Average meaning that you driving 110 miles is unusual, you even state that some of your coworkers have much shorter commutes.

Given your 110 mile commute a EV may not be the best option for you, fair point. I will say that used EV's are fairly affordable (my 2020 Bolt cost $12K) and there are now several new options with 250 mile+ range for around $30-35K which isn't cheap but is far from the $90K a Rivian costs. If I were in you shoes I'd probably buy a well used Prius for $5-6K, pop a $4k re-built battery in it and drive it till the wheels fall off, they can usually go for 300K miles without much issue and you'd probably get 40ish MPG.


Way to get the last word in on your way out.


This was in reply to them justifying the anti-EV chat in the EV forum, I was pointing out that was mostly untrue. Name calling has also entered the chat.

NevadaLover, "P.S. a couple users here need to simply put on their grown up underwear and stop whining so bad, it's no different than the anti-toyota, ford or gm talk here, people like different things than you."


If users were demanding everyone buy an EV then yeah they were in the wrong, I agree but did they come into the ICE threads and start telling everyone this or was it in this forum that's for discussing EV's? Do you go into the Tacoma threads and tell everyone you'll never buy a Tacoma until it can tow 7K for 400 miles? I doubt it. You have clearly made your case that no EV fits your parameters for travel and I agree that is the case, we can all move on.

You seem to believe that this forum is divided into sections that are only open to certain users, i.e. EV owners, well sorry to burst your bubble but this is an open forum and all users are allowed to comment in any thread they want to, so it's not a crime to comment infavorably in any thread on the portal, you may not like it but oh well.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Good points, I was replying to NevadaLove saying, "Point is, EV vehicles are still leaps and bounds behind ICE vehicles in many of the metrics that users require their daily drivers to provide." When the average daily driver drives 30 miles a day their requirements are met. Average meaning that you driving 110 miles is unusual, you even state that some of your coworkers have much shorter commutes.

Given your 110 mile commute a EV may not be the best option for you, fair point. I will say that used EV's are fairly affordable (my 2020 Bolt cost $12K) and there are now several new options with 250 mile+ range for around $30-35K which isn't cheap but is far from the $90K a Rivian costs. If I were in you shoes I'd probably buy a well used Prius for $5-6K, pop a $4k re-built battery in it and drive it till the wheels fall off, they can usually go for 300K miles without much issue and you'd probably get 40ish MPG.

Yes. Absolutely true. My driving needs do differ. That I realize every day, unfortunately, ha ha. Sure gives me time to gear up for the day, or unwind on the way home, and I feel I've got a great place and people to come home to, so theres that.

Alas, a 10 year old Prius, for example, in my neck of the woods is not $6 grand, it is more like $16 grand with about 100k miles on them. I've been thinking about something like that for a commuter car but keep thinking back for a Subaru. Should be able to do it in about a year or so

 

[Ex Animo]

You seem to believe that this forum is divided into sections that are only open to certain users, i.e. EV owners, well sorry to burst your bubble but this is an open forum and all users are allowed to comment in any thread they want to, so it's not a crime to comment infavorably in any thread on the portal, you may not like it but oh well.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. It's pretty clear from this thread you have a grudge against EV advocates and that's different from typical "Ford vs Chevy" conversations, it's personal for you. You've resorted to name calling and mistakingly think I am somehow "offended" by your personal opinion on the matter, I really don't care. I care that a few people in the EV forum are legit excited to try a new form of travel but are quickly drown out by naysayers who have no interest or more importantly no experience in it. It all feels too much like culture war noise and not a honest conversation about a new means to explore the world.

Honestly it seems like you have a good thing going for you, a rig you clearly love, 2 different travel trailers?, time to enjoy them and I think you even mentioned a girlfriend? Why spend so much time trying to bring others down?

Yes. Absolutely true. My driving needs do differ. That I realize every day, unfortunately, ha ha. Sure gives me time to gear up for the day, or unwind on the way home, and I feel I've got a great place and people to come home to, so theres that.

Alas, a 10 year old Prius, for example, in my neck of the woods is not $6 grand, it is more like $16 grand with about 100k miles on them. I've been thinking about something like that for a commuter car but keep thinking back for a Subaru. Should be able to do it in about a year or so

I've had some long commutes in my time and grew up 20 miles from cell service, gas stations or stores, I know the highs and lows of a long drive that bookends your work day well! Subaru's are awesome, good luck on your commuter car search!

 

[SimplyAnAdventure]

It’s pretty rare to have a conversation here about actual EVs. Anything nearly as positive as what Overland Journal puts out get very little interest. Start a thread with an anti EV title with no sourcing and the same half dozen or so members show up with the same forwards from Grandma.

Without any content moderation this sub is a cesspool of misinformation, half truths and agenda based language intentional or not. Expo needs EV content if it’s going to stay relevant going forward.

I’ll leave the concept of free will and choice to another forum, but there is no EV mandate. The mandate is for manufacturers, to nudge them to build vehicles that meet certain emissions metrics. They don’t have to be EVs. Without this push, and protectionism, some manufacturers will not be able to compete in a “free market”.

The narrative of taking away something, is a common political tactic. Language is import, I appreciate your sentiment though.

12 US States Are Planning to Ban the Sale of Gas-Powered Cars

To curb tailpipe emissions and boost EV and plug-in hybrid sales, California is working toward banning the purchase of combustion cars. Eleven more US states announced plans to follow suit.

www.cnet.com

You are not correct. Not by a long shot.

I live in NY. Trust me there are mandates on the horizon. I simply said I disagree with them but trust me they are signed laws right now. They’re for the future but they are already on the books.

My opinion on EV’s is all fact based, as I said I’m on my third so clearly I’m not anti EV….

As a separate point I have a degree in engineering as well as having decades of work in and around power generation at the highest level including inside Nuclear Power plants. I understand electricity.

EV’s are fine and like I said people are free to do what they want but people need to be realistic in their expectations. EV’s aren’t the same as gas, not yet anyway.