2020 Defender Spy Shots....

[vintageracer]

Square shape, round shape, sad eyes, luxurious, historical, purpose built, British and more.

After reading all this I thought it was the Jeep people that were the fanatical brand loyal enthusiasts!

As usual.

Wrong again!!!

 

[Todd780]

I disagree..
The Defender line, even before it was named Defender until the last real Defender, had different engines, power train, and trim levels.
Which made for different vehicles from a stylish European “Sidewalk Defender” with leather seats and so, to a bare overloaded African version.

But with all the evolution of models everybody always saw that it is a Defender.

Same for the G line, Jeep wrangler, 70’ series.
And your Porsche example..

That’s not the case with the “new Defender”
It’s more of a RR/Disco mix, and if LR would have title it D6 or a totally new line name, it would have been more logic.

I’m not anti prograss and development, totally not.

I just don’t think this new creation is the next step of what is the Defender character and spirit.






Slowly..

Agreed. That is the point I was trying to convey in my previous post where I reference the Wrangler, G, VW Beetle, Fiat 500. They are easily identifiable and unique in their product lines.

 

[Pilat]

Agreed. That is the point I was trying to convey in my previous post where I reference the Wrangler, G, VW Beetle, Fiat 500. They are easily identifiable and unique in their product lines.

Well, you'd be surprised. Doron claims it is not about looks at all in response to a post saying he only cared about that.

Ok, so your argument is based solely on looks then. Got it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk

You got it all wrong..
It’s about functionality and simplicity.

I bet he'll agree with that, only claim that he doesn't. Just like he's claiming it is not about rock crawling, but constantly uses arguments to support his view that the new defender is bad for rock crawling.

 

[tacr2man]

Landrover have basically put a Defender badge on another variation on the same theme of SUV , a cosmetically different Discovery/Velar/ Evoque/ RangeRover . I wont be buying one to replace my RR supercharged , and it cant replace my Defender , looks like I will be waiting for the true replacement for defender , the Ineos Grenadier .
I think JLR have scored an own goal as its only likely to rob sales from their existing line up , not a good result .

 

[Blaise]

So half the time people are yelling about how awful this car is, and the other half of the time complaining that demand is so high that dealers are marking then up $20-30k over MSRP.

So which is it? Nobody wants one or everyone does?

 

[onemanarmy]

The Porsche argument is not valid. The 911 was unmistakably a 911, even after it got water cooling. It's still unmistakably a 911. My wife can spot them and she knows nothing about cars.

What we have here is akin to changing the name of the Panamera to 911. Can you imagine the uproar?

The C8 is not a true Corvette either. It's just Chevy being lazy. It's a fantastic car, but it's a completely different car from the 60 years of front engine rear drive setup that had a certain look, feel, and driving characteristics. I'm glad they are pushing the envelope and we have this car as an option, but it's no Corvette.

Just slapping a name on it does not make it. There are intrinsic qualities that just make 'it'....especially after 40-50 years of legacy. IFS or no IFS.

It's just sad/confusing/disappointing that they went this way with such a golden opportunity to go at the other brands/names that have stayed true to roots....70 series, Gwag, Wrangler, hopefully the new Bronco. They entered a saturated market just as the market is shifting. Weird. Its just more of the same, more or less.

 

[Pilat]

Back to the "Has to look like the old one to the point that the headlights must be the exactly the same and the tail lights too".

Wasn't the Wrangler YJ the one with rectangular headlights?


And with regards to Porsche, they changed their 911 headlights at one point too. And they (supposedly) changed the "911-feel" when they went power steering, and yet again when it became an electric ps system. Those things where oh-so important to the die-hards, yet, the fact is that the newer ones are better cars than those preceeding them. Hell, you can even get AWD Porsche 911s now that don't attempt to kill you, and yet, as long as you guys have the "looks", it really doesn't matter beyond that, does it? Talk about a mall-crawler mindset - only you want that old, retro "Jeep look".

 

[Blaise]

The C8 is not a true Corvette either. It's just Chevy being lazy. It's a fantastic car, but it's a completely different car from the 60 years of front engine rear drive setup that had a certain look, feel, and driving characteristics. I'm glad they are pushing the envelope and we have this car as an option, but it's no Corvette.

Corvette isn't out. You can't drive it.

Defender isn't out. You can't drive it.

Tell me more about those driving characteristics!!!

 

[onemanarmy]

Well they were engineered to drive different, so I'm guessing they will.

Way to hyper-focus on one word I typed.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

 

[Blaise]

And with regards to Porsche, they changed their 911 headlights at one point too. And they (supposedly) changed the "911-feel" when they went power steering, and yet again when it became an electric ps system. Those things where oh-so important to the die-hards, yet, the fact is that the newer ones are better cars than those preceeding them. Hell, you can even get AWD Porsche 911s now that don't attempt to kill you, and yet, as long as you guys have the "looks", it really doesn't matter beyond that, does it? Talk about a mall-crawler mindset - only you want that old, retro "Jeep look".

What's funny is that years ago I would make comments like this.

"THEY RUINED IT"

Now I've gotten a bit older, more mature, and have a ton more experience in the area of product engineering/development/production. And I've owned a ton more cars. And now... it makes sense.

The cars I claimed I wanted when I was 25 and never could afford - I'd never buy. I'll never forget how disappointed I was with the Lotus Elise when I could finally afford one. Cool when you're 18, not when you're old enough to actually afford it.

Turns out car companies are actually pretty good at figuring out their customer base. When I drove a 981 GTS a few years ago on a whim, I very nearly made a $60K+ impulse purchase. It was THAT good.

 

[Blaise]

Well they were engineered to drive different, so I'm guessing they will.

I sure hope it's different! That's how vehicles evolve. They get better.

The JL drives way different than a JK which is way different than a TJ. They got better. Different is good. Same is stagnation. Being caught up with the underpinnings of suspension design, especially with most folks who haven't taken the time to understand basic suspension geometry - there's where the issue lies.

If someone said 'wow, the Defender has 4" of suspension travel, that's ridiculous' I'd 100% agree.

But instead we're arguing over a system with over a FOOT of wheel travel and claiming its garbage bc it's independent.

 

[Pilat]

With a bit of luck, it doesn't look "cool" enough to make into a bro-dozer for that ultimate mall-crawler/gas-guzzler/Coal-rolling fraternity.

 

[mpinco]

So half the time people are yelling about how awful this car is, and the other half of the time complaining that demand is so high that dealers are marking then up $20-30k over MSRP.

So which is it? Nobody wants one or everyone does?

Well that is an easy one. The D5 failed to meet volume expectations. New to LR buyers think the D5 is great. Previous LR customers think the D5 is a larger Russian doll in a line of look-a-like design language, that LR lost the formula. There are high expectations for the Luxury Defender and dealers are attempting to price it accordingly. Nothing has been delivered and no revenue has been received so it is a "hope" on the mark-up over MSRP. The success/failure of the Luxury Defender will be known in roughly 2 years, no earlier. My fear is that the adoption of large scale technology (80+ ECU's) has placed it in the virtual high cost smartphone category that as all know has been commoditized and is seeing mediocre sales. Everyone has technology. It is no longer a differentiator.

At the dealer for service today and the loaner was a D5. (Evoque is usually the loaner, yuck!) Wife thinks the D5 feels like nothing more than a KIA SUV. I know better than that but ........ that is the 'design language' of today's LR. Personally I do not like the D5 for many reasons and it has lost its differentiation from the herd of SUV's (I'm not here to argue off-road ability) I understand LR is trying to reposition Discovery to create a 3rd product line (Defender, Discovery, Range Rover) Good luck to them buy I'm no longer a potential Discovery customer. For the Luxury Defender they need better power train options. I communicated that and was told that should happen.

Edit add:

- Everyone uses virtually the same suppliers
- Reliability/Quality are virtually equal across the manufacturers
- Technology is a commodity. You can't differentiate on technology. It's obsolete within a few years anyway.
- A majority of people could live with standard off-road capabilities

What's left?

Design/market presence/differentiation, not Russian dolls.

 

[Pilat]

Although tech may not "differentiate" one car over the other, is not the same as sayng that because of that, tech is useless. Onl gimmicks for gimmicks' sake is useless. Here, "tech" includes modern computer design, independent suspension, traction control, and modern metallurgy. Just because it doesn't seem that much "different" to you who equate "tech" with computers and think they're all the same, so nothing to differentiate them from others, doesn't mean we should then go back to the design and tech of the 1940s (or 60s) or wherever else you want to stop.
If you think the tech is in cars in order to differentiate themselves, I don't know what to say.


I don't buy something "techy" to differentiate myself. The tech I buy serves a purpose, such as my bike (biycle) GPS, laptop, phone, and especially my prosthetic leg which is made from carbon fibre and titanium (yes, really). The shape of it was done by scanning my leg stump. How about that. Quite cool, I think.

In short: I don't use that tech to differentiate myself, I use it because it has a purpose. I would also like to reiterate that "tech" is much more than CPUs and computing power.

 

[Blaise]

mpinco: Great response. Thanks for taking a moment to type it out Seriously. Good responses like this make this thread far more enjoyable.

I fully understand the D5 style and the low volume sales... but I was talking about the Defender.

But as you said, the MSRP markup could very well be based on hopes and never materialize. We'll see what happens.

The 3-line option may work very well if the Defender is sucessful. As you said, time will tell. And I really need to go drive a D5 so I can see how it is.

- Technology is a commodity. You can't differentiate on technology. It's obsolete within a few years anyway.

This is something that drives me crazy. You're 100% right, but if you *dont* include the stupid 10" screen which will look horrible in 3 years, you look dated compared to the next manufacturer who does it, and you lose the sale.

Unfortunately lots of people don't think more than 1 or 2 years ahead. And manufacturers have given up on the double-DIN standard.