End of the world

[discotdi]

Bet the G broke something when it landed as any other vehicle most likely would have. Scott for sure there is no one vehicle that is the best at everything. My point here has been that I can't believe that LR fans and drivers would belittle the new products so much just because they are expensive and driven by Soccer moms. That fact does not reduce the heritage and the 4x4 ability of the new products.
Scott you are the pro here that is for sure. But I think an LR3 with the rear locker and proper tires driven by say Tom Collins or Bob Burns could follow you and the Rubicon jeep down the Rubicon trail, no sweat.

 

[Antichrist]

My point here has been that I can't believe that LR fans and drivers would belittle the new products so much just because they are expensive and driven by Soccer moms. That fact does not reduce the heritage and the 4x4 ability of the new products.

You must have your forums confused. I'm pretty sure I haven't seen anyone here seriously do the former, or claim the latter. I know I certainly haven't done either. But I have been driving Land Rovers long enough to know a little bit about them.

 

[discotdi]

Tom- you are right this thread started as a chat about the Defender on an LR3 platform. then somehow it turned into a "Land Rover is not viable in the US market" thread with people saying that the true LR ended with the 1999 or 1969 or 1997 etc. and that lifestyle had become more important than 4x4.
I was only trying to state that the new products are still worthy as Land Rovers even with all the new technology and the non 4x4 users as buyers.
thankfully LR still makes a car that can go off road, if you want to do that.
And the LR3 chassis is plenty strong for the Defender line up in the future.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

I have defended the LR3 suspension in the past, but I seriously doubt that it would be up to the task for use in the Defender. Not if the intentional use of that Defender is the same as it is today. The frame, maybe, in a SWB type truck. Certainly not for a 130 or something. I know I certainly wouldn't buy one, if my intended use as the same as a current Defender.

Perhaps LR plans to release the new Defender on the LR3 chassis as a "lifestyle" vehicle, and will continue building a "Defender Classic" on the old tooling for ROTW?

My contact at LR is currently working on the 2012, with nothing much to report there (I have to obfuscate a bit here to protect the innocent). He suggested the demise of the Defender might come because of pedestrian crash rules. Lots of nasty sharp edges and hard panels, with not much room to improve the situation. Defender is on the board past 2012, but he doesn't have any details yet.

This 2013 thing is plausible. Maybe ship the old Defender tooling to India to assemble them there, or make knock-down kits for other developing countries.

 

[Scott Brady]

Scott you are the pro here that is for sure. But I think an LR3 with the rear locker and proper tires driven by say Tom Collins or Bob Burns could follow you and the Rubicon jeep down the Rubicon trail, no sweat.

Unfortunately, even great drivers like Tom and Bob cannot overcome physics, and physical space. The LR3 is in a completely different class of vehicle from the Wrangler Rubicon. That is also not a criticism of the LR3, because it is great at other things, and has a ride quality and handling performance the Jeep cannot match.

You can certainly get an LR3 from one end of the Rubicon to the next, but it would take a team of spotters, trail builders and support vehicles to ensure even minor damage. I have been paid by Jeep to do that with a Liberty and various other models, and know the effort it takes to get a vehicle like the LR3 through that trail. I have driven and walked the Rubicon more times than I can remember.

The point is that you could stick a 15 year-old that has never driven on dirt behind the wheel of a Jeep Rubicon, and it would come out the other end of the trail with little or no damage (I have taken 14 groups of journalists through the Rubicon in stock wranglers, including the 15 year old son of the CEO of Mitsubishi Europe). The LR3 would never be able to run that trail with the ease and reserve capability of the Wrangler Rubicon and piloted by a complete novice.

Land Rover is a very different company today, with very different goals. I am not judging which way is better, but I spend much more time contemplating the Land Rovers I should have bought between 1993 and 1997, than the ones l might buy in 2013...

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Scott, I'm curious about your experiences with the Rubicon Trail and Wrangler. I was on some trails with a number of stock Rubicons last year, and wasn't super impressed. I was a rank beginner, as were some of the other drivers. I had a pretty much stock D2 with just a 2" lift and 31" tires. We all got over the trail, but the Rubicons seemed to have more trouble. There were no big articulation or traction problems, but the Jeeps seemed to be dragging their bellies across everything. The 4 door in particular. The breakover angle seemed less than mine. There's lots of powertrain hanging down below the frame on the Jeep, and protected by fairly flimsy skid plates.

When they do the Rubicon on these things, are they dragging them, and that's just considered normal?

One couple got pretty spooked and went home after the first day.

It's not that they performed badly, but that I thought they'd do better.

 

[Scott Brady]

The 4-Door has a 112" WB, so the break over angle will be less than a DI or DII.

On the Rubicon, they do scrape skid plates on the 4-Doors. The 2-doors are not even a challenge to drive.

The Jeep Rubicon does have one achilles heel, the new owners that have never shifted any vehicle into low-range. There are a lot of magic buttons on that truck, including front and rear lockers, 4:1 transfer case, sway-bar disconnect, etc., but none of those things replace an experienced driver. With an experienced driver, the Rubicon can do magic...

I have also seen the LR3 do magic with a good spotter on wipe-out hill in Moab. With the center and rear locker, they are impressive given their level of comfort and highway manners.

 

[Mike_rupp]

The 2 door Rubicons will make an inexperienced driver look like they've been driving off road for years. Marc O, my brother and I were driving to the Kane Creek Canyon in Moab a few years ago. A father and son were sitting at the entrance to the trail in a bone stock 2 door Rubicon. They asked if they could tag along on the trail with us. Since we are the nicest guys out there, we of course allowed him to tag along.

They drove right behind me throughout the trail. After doing a somewhat interesting obstacle, I'd check to see how they were progressing. It was child's play for the Rubicon. He never even had a challenge on the trail.

 

[proper4wd]

Stop, you guys are really making me miss my TJ Rubicon!

It would go silly places. I'd like to think of myself as an experienced driver; some may attest to that, I don't know. In any case, there were a lot of instances where it downright embarrased much more built trucks. It's amazing what light weight, very low COG, flexy suspension, 4:1 tcase paired with a 5spd and a tractor engine will go. The lockers were the true saving grace, obviously. They make a lot of obstacles obsolete. It's only downfall was that it was, well, a Jeep

 

[Scott Brady]

Nice vehicle line-up Adam...

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Yeah, I tend to hang around with a lot of JK's, and the 2 doors are pretty incredible. But most of them are lifted 3-4" too so it's hard to compare. I made it through this part of the trail, but uh... it wasn't pretty. Good thing I was wearing brown pants.

Have you got a trailer build thread Adam?

 

[discotdi]

"I have defended the LR3 suspension in the past, but I seriously doubt that it would be up to the task for use in the Defender".
I am sure LR would make a different non air spring suspension for the Defender, but the frame is all good. LR currently sells non air spring D3's in Europe. the suspension etc could be made for the Defenders many uses.
But who cares really because we won't have anything to do with deciding the fate of the Defender.
Scott, nice pic of the Liberty. However if that truck made it down the Rubicon on street tires with no mods, I know an LR3 will. I have a crd liberty and it can't do what an LR3 can. Gearing sucks, no clearance etc. I drove it off road a couple of weeks ago on pansy trails and it was scraping and bouncing all over the place. and going down a long steep decline, forget it brakes all the way too fast. HDC kicks its a**.
I guess we will see what happens because LRL magzine is going to run the Rubicon with some LR3's later this year. at least that is what I hear. so, I may be proved way wrong.

 

[michaelgroves]

I am sure LR would make a different non air spring suspension for the Defender, but the frame is all good.

I'm intrigued to know why you think the frame would be suitable for a Defender type commercial truck? The Defender's raison d'etre is as a work-platform - various wheelbases carrying various body styles, including specialist equipment (cherry pickers, crop sprayers, game viewing tiers, gun platforms, tankers, etc). A One-Thirty can have a payload close to 1500kg.

I'm wondering which parts of a Discovery III would be retained in order for it to be considered a shared platform?

IMO, if they do decide to use the Disco III as the basis for a new Defender (and they well might), then it will be because the new Defender is aimed at an entirely different market to the existing one.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

I am sure LR would make a different non air spring suspension for the Defender, but the frame is all good. LR currently sells non air spring D3's in Europe. the suspension etc could be made for the Defenders many uses.

No, I disagree. The suspension of the LR3, and I'm not talking about the air springs, but the control arms, etc. is inadequate for commercial use. I only defend it's design when the LR3 is used for what the LR3 was designed for.

 

[Scott Brady]

However if that truck made it down the Rubicon on street tires with no mods, I know an LR3 will. I have a crd liberty and it can't do what an LR3 can.

Is it the camera or photographer that captures the image?

Taking a Liberty, or an LR3 over the Rubicon Trail is a puzzle that is not easy to solve. Taking a stock Wrangler Rubicon across that trail is a puzzle anyone old enough to see over the steering wheel can solve. Does that help clarify my previous post?