good theory as to how it missed the mark.

[utherjorge]

INEOS is expanding into USA coverage. While I don't expect them to exceed Land Rover for example, how many good dealers are needed in any reasonable service area?

I don't hear Porsche owners complaining that their 911 or Macan can't be fixed in rural America.

There are far more Porsche franchise locations, with even more sports car garages, available than what INEOS has lined up. But don't let facts confuse you.

 

[utherjorge]

I shopped a Gladiator and was VERY UNIMPRESSED. The JLU is a much better option for me personally.

While some people might want a mobile mansion on a Ford Super Duty platform, that's not me.

My experience on a farm in Oklahoma for many years suggested a lighter vehicle is better for mud and sand whether I have a winch or tractor to pull me out or not!

This is my favorite post you've written. I agree with all of it.

However, the overland fad/craze/life simply expects people will carry more, and in fact, that's the way things are. Even truck bed campers are no longer able to fit on a half-ton bed. 3/4 and up...and even the manufacturers are agreeing now.

I would prefer to get a simply shell with a bed on top...but I also have a family of 6, so a short bed could never meet my needs.

 

[utherjorge]

Chicken Tax or not I think is OBE since this is NOT A PICKUP!

In terms of payload, that is better than almost any mid-size domestic USA pickup and most half-ton full-size options!

That whole section of my post was about the Quartermaster...which...is a pickup.

 

[A.J.M]

Is the UK really the 'primary market' for the Grenadier? The EU is likely more of a primary market for this vehicle and, then I would say the USA follows closely behind with its projected 7,000 vehicles from INEOS this year in our market.

With ~60 sold in Dallas so far, 583 in the whole of the UK doesn't sound too impressive or significant! The UK and a lot of the EU will be more 'Pavement Princess' Land Rover oriented IMHO for the Walter Mitty owners and others that just want the image in their 'mall crawler'!

Of course it’s not the primacy market.
But for someone with such a understanding of the U.K. market, who tried to buy the tooling for the classic defender before building this model…

Jim made the claim this car would be a replacement for the classic defender, either a price tag close to £25k.
It’s 3 times that price tag and is more expensive than the equivalent new defender 110.
A car with better ground clearance, wading depth, approach and departure angles.

Now, as I said, it’s likely a bigger seller in other markets but the U.K. hasn’t been a big hit.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Most people will use the center console for things like that. Reaching across a vehicle to open a glove box to access your cell phone while driving is simply crazy and dangerous. My vehicle has USB ports for music and charging on the dash and in the center console.

With said USB port on the dash and center console, what purpose to does a hidden USB port inside a glove box really have? Most modern vehicles have charging ports in the center dash and center console for a reason. If a glove box port made sense, why don't manufacturers offer them?

Some people are pleasant enough to be around that they have other people ride in the car with them, they might like some here to charge their stuff too, or maybe charge camera batteries . I am not one to argue about having too many USB ports as I have personally never had too many. A lot of people like putting their radios in the glove box in Broncos and Jeeps, not sure you can power then with a USB though (never looked into it)

My garmin would take a USB and that would be an awesomely clean way to power it without having wires dangling across the dash.

I still would encourage people with setups like this to look at the vehicle condition for signs of aftermarket tuner use to help avoid serious mechanical problems. You do you, I'll do me, and avoid vehicles that look like this.

Surprising as it may be my 1985 truck shipped with exactly 0 USB ports so I had to add them. There was a metal blank over a hole in the firewall so I installed my ports into that blank, easily 110% reversable and without anything plugged in assuming you were allowed access to the truck you wouldn't know they were even there. It has a bluetooth radio and garmin GPS so once the phone is plugged in I have no need to touch it until I exit the truck. And that is just the outlet, I plug the cord in and my phone just rides in the passenger seat just like it does with my F-150 or our Bronco that has USB ports on the dash.

If you don't care about the damage of an aftermarket tuner some idiot used to damage a motor and transmission, GO FOR it and please don't whine when they fail. Granted, diesel pickups are the worst for this in the area I live in (more rural and farm-oriented) it is also an issue in larger cities with people going to aftermarket shops for all sorts of BLING to impress their Social Media friends.

Never said anything about aftermarket. Aside from BMW likely won't be doing the tuning and thus unless they have some deal worked out won't have access to it. I am the parts manager at a CDJR dealer. Sterling buys Ram trucks, changes things and then resells them as Sterlings with a different grille/badging. Electronically we can not do much to them, Sterling has their own programming. I would not be surprised if something similar happens here.

It's a crate motor. It won't freak out any reasonable mechanic. If it does, I don't want them wrenching on my vehicle!

Tell me you haven't worked on anything OE with a crate engine from another brand without telling me you have worked on anything OE with a crate engine from a different brand...

Word Police withstanding, motor or engine are common enough I don't think anyone confuses a Diesel with an EV! 🤣

Like a diesel electric locomotive... just needs a motor.

I don't hear Porsche owners complaining that their 911 or Macan can't be fixed in rural America.

I don't either but then there are three Porsche dealers an hour away as opposed to 10+ hours for the nearest Ineos dealer.

And, don't confuse television shows with reality!!! I liked Top Gear and Fifth Gear in years past but, they aren't 'documentaries'! Clarkson for example is more of a Social Media personality looking for 'clicks' and is not about unbiased automotive accuracy.

The Grenadier has enough payload and trailering capacity for most people who don't really need a 1-ton dually diesel with a >400HP and >1,000ft-lbs of torque to pull a mobile mansion or their daughter's horse!

It was an example of how things are different here than over there. They don't do farm trucks like we do. A 3/4 ton is the bread and butter farm truck here in the cornbelt and it is used an abused.

Horse people are horse people, they would only make sense to other horse people... if they didn't all hate each other.

WRONG! They will build it any way you want it based on available options. Want a base model with Rough Pack only? Sure, no problem!

Statistically that is the only way we get anything neat, Gwagon, Land Rover, Land Cruiser etc.

Car manufactures do model allocating, while they may be offered the more basic ones will probably be harder to find because they make more money in the more expensive ones. See also manual transmission Tacoma.

Again, you make a statement that is FALSE. I won't argue it is best but, plenty of farmers and ranchers use a Tahoe or similar vehicle in the Winter to chop ice on a pond or put range cubes in a feed trough for cattle. In particular, I see people with horses in an SUV with a bumper pull horse trailer frequently.

Never was the wrong word but I can't think of a one around here. An SUV impedes the use of pallets, aux fuel tanks for equipment and gooseneck hitches.

I did know one guy that bought old cheap minivans for a farmtruck. He would throw the disgusting rear seats in the burn pile and would have a huge enclosed cargo bay with a low load floor.

Horse/acreage people don't really count. We have an acreage and have hauled sheep in our Bronco for whatever that counts.

 

[Sid Post]

Because of what?

I don't know but, it had holes in the bed and a missing piece of the wheel well with some purple die on the white bed like you see with PVC. From the side or back, it looked good until you dropped the tailgate. It was some sort of service truck apparently for a construction trade of some sort.

From 30 feet, it sure looked nice though! When I asked about some discount to help fix the bed and mitigate the risk of unexpected costs patching the holes, I was ambushed with a $3K "dealer prep" upcharge and a listing of used vehicles from some random website suggesting it was the cheapest one within 500 miles.

 

[Sid Post]

Of course it’s not the primacy market.
But for someone with such a understanding of the U.K. market, who tried to buy the tooling for the classic defender before building this model…

Jim made the claim this car would be a replacement for the classic defender, either a price tag close to £25k.
It’s 3 times that price tag and is more expensive than the equivalent new defender 110.
A car with better ground clearance, wading depth, approach and departure angles.

Now, as I said, it’s likely a bigger seller in other markets but the U.K. hasn’t been a big hit.

If I lived in the UK or one of its commonwealth nations, I'd be all over a Land Rover Defender.

I was not aware that the Grenadier was supposed to be a £25,000 vehicle there. A Toyota Rav 4 over here costs a lot more than that even in 2WD!

 

[utherjorge]

I did know one guy that bought old cheap minivans for a farmtruck. He would throw the disgusting rear seats in the burn pile and would have a huge enclosed cargo bay with a low load floor.

Super great post all the way around. Funny story: when my minivan went bye bye because of its tranny, I sold it to a guy who has several of them. He ripped the leather interior out just as you said, and I still see that van working hard at about 200k

 

[utherjorge]

I was not aware that the Grenadier was supposed to be a £25,000 vehicle there.

Yes, there were quite a few claims on this rig when it was first being planned. Quite a few did not come to pass, which is how you get a vehicle that's not ready for prime time in a whole lot of ways, as covered here.

 

[nickw]

Tuning the engine to meet the service needs of Grenadier is a given. We aren't talking about a Beemer built for the race track here. Detuned for high torque will mitigate a lof of concerns with wear and tear on the motor IMHO.

BMW drivetrains are really good and are generally very reliable, especially the ones tuned for long duty cycles.

It is the electronics and body hardware that generally does a BMW car in. I'm not saying the drivetrain is never the issue as some BMW motors have had issues but, generally, that is not what drives BMW ownership costs up to sky-high levels.

Detuning for high torque doesn't necessarily mean less stress, less RPM but low RPM doesn't = low wear, in some cases it's worse. But I still don't buy it - electric may do them in but repairability and cost to repair has always been a huge issue with Beemers the oil pump being a prime example....it's at the back of the engine which needs to be pulled to change, buying a used car with 120k miles on it with a oil pump replacement looming over your head is a huge killer to resale. The majority of 'commercial' rigs built as commercial rigs don't have silly things like that, it makes sense on a performance road car, not on a expo vehicle. Everytime you dig deep into a car mechanically there is a chance it won't go back together properly....huge issue especially with the complications of rigs these days.

The bigger concern for me is the transmission....light duty, used in small X1/3 SUV's....

 

[nickw]

Are they limited though? I have started to look at Superduty singles cabs. Solid axles, rear locker, amazing payload, good reliability in the gas versions, I don’t think a foreign truck matches it.

Agreed, not even close - grass is always greener, I think the Aussies would go crazy over a single cab american truck, stronger, more capable, more durable....reliability probably isn't quite there but it ticks a lot of boxes for remote travel vs a single cab Toyota pickup they use often.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Detuning for high torque doesn't necessarily mean less stress, less RPM but low RPM doesn't = low wear, in some cases it's worse. But I still don't buy it - electric may do them in but repairability and cost to repair has always been a huge issue with Beemers the oil pump being a prime example....it's at the back of the engine which needs to be pulled to change, buying a used car with 120k miles on it with a oil pump replacement looming over your head is a huge killer to resale. The majority of 'commercial' rigs built as commercial rigs don't have silly things like that, it makes sense on a performance road car, not on a expo vehicle. Everytime you dig deep into a car mechanically there is a chance it won't go back together properly....huge issue especially with the complications of rigs these days.

The bigger concern for me is the transmission....light duty, used in small X1/3 SUV's....

Having to pull an engine to service the oil pump isn't really that uncommon.

A lot of commercial rigs you have to pull the cab to do much more than change the oil nowadays.

It is generally pretty uncommon to really have an issue with an oil pump however...

Doing in the sticks with a flashlight and leatherman you will probably have issues but a qualified shop shouldn't have an issue swapping oil pumps.

 

[nickw]

Having to pull an engine to service the oil pump isn't really that uncommon.

A lot of commercial rigs you have to pull the cab to do much more than change the oil nowadays.

It is generally pretty uncommon to really have an issue with an oil pump however...

Doing in the sticks with a flashlight and leatherman you will probably have issues but a qualified shop shouldn't have an issue swapping oil pumps.

Pulling cab is a Ford thing isn't it? Easy to do with a lift....pulling sealed mechanical systems apart is much more complex.

Problems with oil pumps is uncommon but catastrophic and has much shorter service intervals than turbos on a full sized pickup.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Pulling cab is a Ford thing isn't it? Easy to do with a lift....pulling sealed mechanical systems apart is much more complex.

Problems with oil pumps is uncommon but catastrophic and has much shorter service intervals than turbos on a full sized pickup.

Turbo, turbo accessories, headgaskets, heads... it makes just about everything easier. They use oil pressure for the fuel injects so they get into that also. The trucks are halfway setup for it and the guys have been doing it for 20 years so it isn't a big deal. Arguably no matter what you are working on pulling the cab will probably make it easier.

Are oil pumps that big of an issue on these? If so I would think popping them in would be pretty straightforward to dealer techs like pulling cabs etc to other makes.

 

[nickw]

Turbo, turbo accessories, headgaskets, heads... it makes just about everything easier. They use oil pressure for the fuel injects so they get into that also. The trucks are halfway setup for it and the guys have been doing it for 20 years so it isn't a big deal. Arguably no matter what you are working on pulling the cab will probably make it easier.

Are oil pumps that big of an issue on these? If so I would think popping them in would be pretty straightforward to dealer techs like pulling cabs etc to other makes.

I don't think oil pumps are an issue but was just pointing out how there is no design thought about ease of maintenance on a rig that seems to be marketed at the next coming of LC70 series. I'm not an expert on BMW's but what else needs to come apart to change general maintenance items? In 5+ years time who is going to be pulling an engine out of a Gren, and who has the knowledge base/tribal knowledge to do it? I asked about maintenance requirements, Ineos must have those published somewhere? Does Ineos have a service manual available?

At least the domestic stuff is well known, sorted, service bulletined and we have the tribal knowledge base to deal with the rigs.