Grenadier Pricing Announced

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I got $87k on the builder for what was basically the TrailMaster w/ Leather heated seats and a safari rack.
The TrailMaster has a lot included....opted out of other stuff ($1200 for a light bar) because realistically I'd rather select those myself for less $$.

So, it doesn't seem too outlandish for what will be a rare luxury vehicle in the US.
I think folks are also paying for the privilege of having a stock vehicle come from the factory exactly how you would want it. (IE, BFGs, Safari Rack, Winch, Dorkel, etc)

I've seen that "L" word thrown around. It's definitely got luxury pricing, but this is absolutely not a luxury vehicle nor is it intended to be. If you compare it to actual luxury vehicles -- Range Rover, Cadillac, Lexus -- you'll see an entirely different spec sheet. The Grenadier spec sheet is a lot closer to the Jeep than it is to the Range Rover, as it should be; I mentioned on another forum but I'll repeat it here.

The Grenadier's vision, originally (I'm paraphrasing) was a robust, no-nonsense 4x4 for the world that would replace the gap left by the Defender and Land Cruiser which have gone decidedly "upmarket" in their execution (and are priced accordingly). And, I think Ineos actually did nail that vision from a technical perspective, hence my comments on the spec sheet above. It's an exceptional vehicle - looks to be robust, looks like you can mostly fix it with a roll of duct tape and some cuss words, and looks to be incredibly capable and able to fill a particular use case super well.

Market wise, I have always expected them to be more expensive than other 4x4s who do the same kind of thing -- Jeep, New Defender -- because of that technical excellence. In America, I think they are actually pretty fair/close -- a bit higher than I'd hoped, but not outside of what I thought was possible.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

$1 is 1.346 Ca$ currently, so $71.5k is 96.2k Ca$... I'd say you are getting a deal at 92k Ca$. But maybe other manufacturers are giving you bigger discounts?

That's what I'm trying to figure out, Ruff. I find myself wondering if we're getting crazy good deals on Jeeps and Land Rovers up here, relative to the rest of the world!

I used a torque wrench analogy on another forum that I think captures it well.

I have a specific job I want to do, and that's tighten a bolt to a particular specification.

The Jeep is like the needle-type torque wrenches -- not very sophisticated, but you can see how much Ft.Lbs are on the bolt by looking at where the needle is on the gauge in the handle, and it works - lots of good work has been done with them.

The Defender is more like the electronic Snap-On torque wrench - it beeps at you when you reach the right tightness, and is super fancy and comes with a cachet of "the red box".

The Ineos was meant to be a modern, highly refined version of the click-type torque wrench - the kind that most folks will say is the "best" design to use.

But the price of the Ineos in Canada -- which is a great design no doubt, with awesome materials -- is making the Snap-On version look like a very 'affordable' option. Hard to wrap my head around!

 

[carleton]

I've seen that "L" word thrown around. It's definitely got luxury pricing, but this is absolutely not a luxury vehicle nor is it intended to be. If you compare it to actual luxury vehicles -- Range Rover, Cadillac, Lexus -- you'll see an entirely different spec sheet. The Grenadier spec sheet is a lot closer to the Jeep than it is to the Range Rover, as it should be; I mentioned on another forum but I'll repeat it here.

The Grenadier's vision, originally (I'm paraphrasing) was a robust, no-nonsense 4x4 for the world that would replace the gap left by the Defender and Land Cruiser which have gone decidedly "upmarket" in their execution (and are priced accordingly). And, I think Ineos actually did nail that vision from a technical perspective, hence my comments on the spec sheet above. It's an exceptional vehicle - looks to be robust, looks like you can mostly fix it with a roll of duct tape and some cuss words, and looks to be incredibly capable and able to fill a particular use case super well.

Market wise, I have always expected them to be more expensive than other 4x4s who do the same kind of thing -- Jeep, New Defender -- because of that technical excellence. In America, I think they are actually pretty fair/close -- a bit higher than I'd hoped, but not outside of what I thought was possible.

I hear that, and I'm late to the party on this so I'll defer to your judgement.
I've got an f350 Lariat and that is the most luxurious vehicle I've ever owned.

But to me: well made seats, well insulated vehicles (for road noise & being able to listen to stereo at a reasonable volume), simple ergonomics & simple cockpit. That is luxury to me.
Jeeps always look/feel very plasticy to me on the gauges/etc. This appears (at least in photos), to be more refined. Can't speak to the other criteria...

 

[plainjaneFJC]

I’m actually surprised it’s priced as low as it is, I don’t see how they’ll make money at the low volumes this will be produced. My guess the second year prices raise substantially or production numbers ramp way up, they have to be losing money for now.

 

[T-Willy]

They missed the mark. It’s just not compelling at that price. For that much money, for remote touring, I can get a single cab f-150 with vastly better payload, vastly better fuel efficiency, a 36 gallon tank with vastly better range, continent-wide serviceability and parts availability, a level and rear locker and added one up front, *and* a pop top camper on back.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I hear that, and I'm late to the party on this so I'll defer to your judgement.
I've got an f350 Lariat and that is the most luxurious vehicle I've ever owned.

But to me: well made seats, well insulated vehicles (for road noise & being able to listen to stereo at a reasonable volume), simple ergonomics & simple cockpit. That is luxury to me.
Jeeps always look/feel very plasticy to me on the gauges/etc. This appears (at least in photos), to be more refined. Can't speak to the other criteria...

I totally get where you are coming from -- I think there's also an element of "the Goldfish grows to the size of the bowl" when it comes to some features in cars. Heated seats, for instance, used to be the realm of only luxury vehicles. But, that is a feature that I have in my $36,000 CDN mid-sized truck (which I only paid mid-$20s for because it had 6,000 kms on the clock, so basically new for next to nothing!). Same with Apple Car Play, keyless entry, etc. As those features trickle down, a lot of folks' expectation of "luxury" changes -- if heated seats are the default in a cheap truck, heated and cooled seats are in the Caddillac! If the cheap truck has an inverter or an extra USB port for charging, the Caddy's got induction charging built into the centre console. In 5 years, the cheap truck will have cooled seats and induction charging, and "Luxury" features are probably going to be things that I can't even imagine -- AI powered autopilot? Who knows.

The Gren was supposed to be more close to my mid-size truck -- car play, heated seats, and those kinds of features -- but not close to the Caddy, and I think they nailed that pretty good with the design.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I’m actually surprised it’s priced as low as it is, I don’t see how they’ll make money at the low volumes this will be produced. My guess the second year prices raise substantially or production numbers ramp way up, they have to be losing money for now.

This is as cheap as the Grenadier will ever be, that's for sure. I don't think they will lose money, and honestly for the technical capability I agree with Scott in the US market -- it's not bad value. Not cheap, but it was never meant to be. In Canada, it's not good value, but it's still as cheap as it'll ever be.

Maybe if they don't move the Canadian price for 3-5 years, it'll present a more compelling value later; I'm actually worried about "sector inflation". If the Gren is coming in at $113k in Canada, it may justify the competition creeping their prices up and still representing a "value" option for the 4x4 market. More money in Tata and Fiat shareholders pockets if that happens. (Not actually sure if Fiat is still in Chrysler but you get my meaning)

 

[plainjaneFJC]

They missed the mark. It’s just not compelling at that price. For that much money, for remote touring, I can get a single cab f-150 with vastly better payload, vastly better fuel efficiency, a 36 gallon tank with vastly better range, continent-wide serviceability and parts availability, a level and rear locker and added one up front, *and* a pop top camper on back.

But you don’t have the same overlander internet credibility in a F150. You can’t use words like bespoke…?

 

[T-Willy]

But you don’t have the same overlander internet credibility in a F150. You can’t use words like bespoke…?

That’s true. I’d have to use small words and go about my days thinking about small things, like the relative price of my more capable truck.

 

[GetOutThere]

$1 is 1.346 Ca$ currently, so $71.5k is 96.2k Ca$... I'd say you are getting a deal at 92k Ca$. But maybe other manufacturers are giving you bigger discounts?

Automotive pricing in Canada isn't a straight USD to CAD conversion.

As an example, an F150 Lariat is $57k USD, and is $65k CAD. At dollar conversion, it would be $77k CAD. That's more typical of the pricing variance we get here.

 

[T-Willy]

My spec, adding only lockers, rack, ladder, and l-track belt—very utilitarian—comes in at over $77,400 USD. That’s about $20k more than I’d (obviously unrealistically) hoped.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Automotive pricing in Canada isn't a straight USD to CAD conversion.

As an example, an F150 Lariat is $57k USD, and is $65k CAD. At dollar conversion, it would be $77k CAD. That's more typical of the pricing variance we get here.

Totally agree, and I think that's why there's so much sticker shock for us Canadians. It looks like Ineos priced based on exchange rates, but in my lifetime I've seen our Loony go from being worth about $0.63 cents USD to being worth $1.01 USD, in about 10 years which is likely why car companies in Canada seem to go by the age-old adage: "It's not what the product is worth, it's about what the market will bear".

The average Canucks brings home about $65k per year before tax. That makes a $77k F-150 look impossible, but a $65k F-150 looks not the worst.

Let's have some fun with math, because I'm in the mood. I'll use my "Ideal Spec" price which resulted in a price of $136k and I'll show my work and sources wherever I can, and since most people finance big purchases, I will also assume that this is being financed fully.

Financing the whole thing over 6 years (a fairly common auto loan length), at today's interest rates (say 7%) means that you'd be paying $2,318 dollars per month for 6 years. That means annually, you'd be paying about $27,816.

Generally, personal finance experts suggest you shouldn't spend more than 20% of your before tax income on your car, gas, and insurance. Let's take the low-end insurance estimate of $1300/year, and take a fairly conservative 10,000 kms of driving which is between 5k to 10k below average, at 16 liters/100 kms (the Gren's stated mileage) and assuming an extremely "cheap" $0.80 cents per liter (that's a full dollar less than I pay in BC) means you're spending another $1280 per year on gas, and let's budget another $1400 for maintenence.

$27,816 - Payments
$1280 - Gas
$1300 - Insurance
$1400 - Maintenence

= $31,796 CDN per year to own the Grenadier.

Using that 20% before-tax income, a person has to be earning $158,980 per year in Canada to afford the Grenadier "responsibly" according to the experts. This totally ignores the cost of living crisis currently underway, by the way; more frugal and conservative advice suggests you should not spend more than 10% of your before tax income on the above, meaning you'd want to be earning $317,960.00

This isn't just a car "For the 1%" as the Occupy Wall Streeters say -- in Canada, "the 1%" starts at $234k per year. That means that to afford the Grenadier, you need to be in some smaller subset of the top 1% of earners in the country, and you need to out-earn those on the threshold of the 1% by nearly $100k. And remember -- that's just to afford to finance the car. Not buy it outright -- you need to be in the top percent of the top percent just to be able to service a loan for the vehicle.

So yeah...Ineos, you built a car that, in Canada at least, only the mega-wealthy can afford to get a loan on. I'd really love folks to check my math -- these are very conservative numbers that should, if anything, dramatically under-reflect the reality, and I'm a bit gobsmacked by the idea that you'd need to be earning north of $300k to "responsibly" finance the purchase of this vehicle.

 

[T-Willy]

Totally agree, and I think that's why there's so much sticker shock for us Canadians. It looks like Ineos priced based on exchange rates, but in my lifetime I've seen our Loony go from being worth about $0.63 cents USD to being worth $1.01 USD, in about 10 years which is likely why car companies in Canada seem to go by the age-old adage: "It's not what the product is worth, it's about what the market will bear".

The average Canucks brings home about $65k per year before tax. That makes a $77k F-150 look impossible, but a $65k F-150 looks not the worst.

Let's have some fun with math, because I'm in the mood. I'll use my "Ideal Spec" price which resulted in a price of $136k and I'll show my work and sources wherever I can, and since most people finance big purchases, I will also assume that this is being financed fully.

Financing the whole thing over 6 years (a fairly common auto loan length), at today's interest rates (say 7%) means that you'd be paying $2,318 dollars per month for 6 years. That means annually, you'd be paying about $27,816.

Generally, personal finance experts suggest you shouldn't spend more than 20% of your before tax income on your car, gas, and insurance. Let's take the low-end insurance estimate of $1300/year, and take a fairly conservative 10,000 kms of driving which is between 5k to 10k below average, at 16 liters/100 kms (the Gren's stated mileage) and assuming an extremely "cheap" $0.80 cents per liter (that's a full dollar less than I pay in BC) means you're spending another $1280 per year on gas, and let's budget another $1400 for maintenence.

$27,816 - Payments
$1280 - Gas
$1300 - Insurance
$1400 - Maintenence

= $31,796 CDN per year to own the Grenadier.

Using that 20% before-tax income, a person has to be earning $158,980 per year in Canada to afford the Grenadier "responsibly" according to the experts. This totally ignores the cost of living crisis currently underway, by the way; more frugal and conservative advice suggests you should not spend more than 10% of your before tax income on the above, meaning you'd want to be earning $317,960.00

This isn't just a car "For the 1%" as the Occupy Wall Streeters say -- in Canada, "the 1%" starts at $234k per year. That means that to afford the Grenadier, you need to be in some smaller subset of the top 1% of earners in the country, and you need to out-earn those on the threshold of the 1% by nearly $100k. And remember -- that's just to afford to finance the car. Not buy it outright -- you need to be in the top percent of the top percent just to be able to service a loan for the vehicle.

So yeah...Ineos, you built a car that, in Canada at least, only the mega-wealthy can afford to get a loan on. I'd really love folks to check my math -- these are very conservative numbers that should, if anything, dramatically under-reflect the reality, and I'm a bit gobsmacked by the idea that you'd need to be earning north of $300k to "responsibly" finance the purchase of this vehicle.

The original marketing touted modest pricing for a relatively utilitarian, purpose built wagon. It’s disappointing to see the modest pricing objective abandoned, for whatever reason that may be.

I mean, even the new defender came in well below the Gren — and that’s targeting the Land Rover crowd.

Part of the problem, I think, is that the payload capable SUV market, excepting perhaps Armada (moderately payload capable), has become a world of ubiquitous luxury price bloat. Why should a new offering price below the norm?

In 2023 dollars, our 1992 80 series was $56,000 when we drove it off the lot.

 

[rruff]

Automotive pricing in Canada isn't a straight USD to CAD conversion.

As an example, an F150 Lariat is $57k USD, and is $65k CAD. At dollar conversion, it would be $77k CAD. That's more typical of the pricing variance we get here.

Yes I noticed this earlier... but saying that this is competitively priced in the US but not Canada... when we actually pay more, is just... funny. If Canada was a poor country that might make some sense, but median incomes in US$ are almost identical. Canadians get a deal on all these vehicles, but maybe not as good a deal on the Grenadier.

I wonder about the rhyme or reason of the difference in prices in different countries. Electronics are expensive in Europe for instance, but bicycle parts are cheap. Both come from China and Taiwan originally. Is the difference in import taxes, restrictions, or what? Bike parts interest me because I worked in that business. I don't think the US restricts or taxes Taiwanese imports, and they didn't with China either at the time, so that couldn't be it. I could buy most items retail from the UK or Germany shops and pay for shipping half way around the world, for less money than US wholesale! Same exact item.

There is an Expo article about Starlink that mentions the cost is ~50% in Mexico vs what it is in the US, and that you can set it up while you are in Mexico and save a lot of money! That makes some sense because Mexico is poor. It still seems a little odd, because it means US residents are subsidizing it so it can be sold for less profit or a loss in other countries.

 

[Grassland]

Makes me feel a touch better knowing IF I can ever afford a truck again, I'll be keeping somebody in Kansas City or Dearborn employed.

@ChasingOurTrunks almost nobody finances at 6 year terms now if 7-8 years are offered. It's how everyone affords to drive around in 60k+ vehicles and live in 600k+ houses. At least here in Manitoba.
Before I broke, my wife and I had a combined income of $175k before taxes, and have no kids. It hurt buying my wife's WK2 for $45k in 2019. Since our combined income is more like $135k now, we've been priced out of the 4x4 SUV and Truck market unless we choose an 8 year term, and then are paying a lot in interest.
$100-135K is a third of a detached home. That you usually purchase with a 25 year mortgage.