&*!#@* Hunters!

[VikingVince]

The other day a group was walking a hill about 500 yards from where I was glassing them from our porch (I have a laser rangefinder). One of the bozos was using his rifle scope to look for deer, and apparently just look around. That is, point the rifle at something, then look through the scope to see what it is. I'm not sure what I would have done if I'd seen him point it at our house, but in Arizona, the law states clearly that if someone points a firearm at you you are justified in assuming he means you bodily harm. And I do know the drop on my Rigby 7mm with 140-grain handloads at 500 yards . . .

Hey Jonathan,

I presume you are wise enough to not shoot the guy...lol...although it's not really funny. I seriously...seriously doubt that the Arizona law you cited would apply to a hunter at 500 yards, during hunting season, having a rifle pointed in the direction of, or in your opinion directly at, your house. It you shot and killed the guy, it would certainly be an interesting test case!! The law would most likely be interpreted as giving one the right to invoke lethal self-defense if the perp was within "reasonable" proximity with a gun pointed directly at you. I think you know that and, no doubt, your statement was simply benign "posturing." (good reading, though!)

Something to keep in mind....Let's say something like you describe did occur and you or someone else killed a hunter at 500 yards for pointing a gun at your house. Everything you post in a forum like this would be requisitioned and would contribute to your frame of mind...and would most likely be construed as prejudicial...IMO, you would most likely be convicted of manslaughter, at least....but, like I said, it would be an interesting case!!!

 

[ntsqd]

Over a month ago I was on the Dusy-Irshim Trail in the Sierras near Shaver Lake. On our way out from the trialhead I noted that as we got closer to town the number of hunter camps grew exponentially. Commented to the guy in the fuel station about how the hunters weren't very far from town, did they expect to find a deer there? Sure weren't any obvious camps in the back country.

The guy commented that near the beginning of the Primative Season he'd been outside mowing his lawn when he heard a "TUUUUNNNGGGGGGGG!!!" and looked up to see an arrow stuck in his roof. He figured that since it gets worse up there every year that he now had to wear Blaze Orange just to mow his yard, which happened to be near a meadow.

I worked in a gunshop while in college. Every year, back in the day, we would get one or two who wanted an AK to go hunting with. That cartrige would be perfectly suitable for the coastal range antlered coyotes that we call deer, but the firearm?

I wish I knew the solution. In the OHV advocacy arena 'self exposure' seems to be used against them. May or may not be the solution here too.

 

[Haggis]

Here in PA all ATV's must be registered and dispay a license plate. If the ATV is operated off the owners property the ATV must have a liability insurance. We own an ATV, a Honda Rancher, it's registered but not insured for it never leaves our property. To us it's a small tractor that hauls firewood, lawn stuff for the wife, and plows snow ( though when we get a good lake effect storm I use our Case skidsteer).

And Mike, good point about the breeding. I have been reading some scary statistics about birth rates among the educated and successful in the US. Unfortunately, only (mostly) the Bubbas are breeding, and they are buying everything for the next generation from Walmart...

Some of the worst offenders I'v ever seen in these parts are supposedly educated and successful, but think they're free to do what ever they want and to hell with the rubes that live where they want to hunt. Most of our problems up here stem form "hunters" from Pittsburgh and Cleveland. who come up here to hunt (urban slang for getting plastered) and roar around on their ATVs. And if it's raining or snowing heavy there is a steady parade of high end pickups and SUVs with Ohio plates and vehicles with Pittsburgh car dealer stickers driving the circuit around our house. Shopping at Wal Mart does not make any one a Bubba. Acting like a fool and a jerk is not a class issue.

 

[Haggis]

The fish and game should promote a "wood land watch" program and incourage people to help out. They could give out stickers you could put on offenders vehicles that stated an infraction had occured and would be under investigation.

They could set up drop boxes for you to leave plate #'s and witness statements.

They could offer free tags and training for "honorary fish and game agents" who would help patrol and report.

Pa has had a program for decades with both the Game and Fish Commissions, where they recruit people to be Deputies. The intent was to have an extra set of eyes to watch for infractions, and to give a hand in stocking programs and other projects. Unfortunately, these programs seem to draw folks who are either more interested in using the program to enable them to know where game and fish are being stocked, to redirect fish and game to private lands (ie buddies property), or to exercise their new powers for ego gratification. They've come to be known as "Sucker Wardens" and are despised by the majority of people. This Spring I had to escort one these Deputies off my property, after he was trying to encourage a couple of teenage fisherman into illegaly snatching a big brown trout. I knew this Deputy, he was not in uniform or showing his badge, and was obviously trying to goad these kids into a fine. After I ask him to show me his badge, he tried to claim he was there to investigate why I had chased off a handicapped boy from my property. I have never seen a handicapped person on my property and if I had I would have been the first to help that person catch a fish whether it was helping that person access the stream or just to stick around to BS. And even if I was a complete *astard, it's my property and I'll chase off any one I want. He said he was going to call the Warden, and get me fined even though he couldn't name a violation. I told him go right ahead and that he could even use my phone, both the regional Game and Fish Wardens are on my dailer. Being in the lumber business and harvesting on State Game lands we had a good working relationship with both agencies. That got him to leave and I then reported him to the regionial Warden. So in the end Bubbas are everywhere.

 

[DesertRose]

There have been some really good suggestions (immediately above, especially) about watch groups and programs to curb these types of activities.

But Arizona unfortunately is an extreme "protectionist" state. Arizona Game & Fish balks at anything, anything at all, that could be construed to limit the so-called rights of hunters. I was appointed to a citizen's advisory group to the Arizona Game & Fish Commission, and I am continuously amazed at how knee-jerk the reactions within G&F and close allies (hunters groups) when anyone suggests something like you have. As if somehow it's the crack in the dam . . . when in fact, the boorish activities of the majority will be the death knell of hunting - since the 2 biggest urban areas - voting blocs - now lean solidly to non-hunting. All it will take is a concerted effort by HUS and their insane exec director to take aim at AZ as they have in other states and shut down hunting . . . they have succeeded in several states on dove hunting, for example. . .

Likewise OHV groups go nuts when we try to introduce something sane like the Copper Sticker, licensing ATVs. It's been a multi-year battle to get it done, and I don't think it's there yet. It should have been a slam-dunk. But the clubs went nuts.

Nothing will happen til we do something to balance extremism - it's what is driving Arizona's conservation climate.

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

Kevin, I'll have you know it's not mud, it's Rastra. Hmph.

"Texas wheelchair" is going to stick. Brilliant.

Good point about citizen deputies. But we still need a better way for ordinary conscientious citizens to effectively record and report land abusers. Registration for all ATVs is the obvious first answer. Here's a statistic to scare you:

The number of titled all-terrain vehicles in Arizona went from 51,000 in December 1998 to more than 230,000 in July 2006.

 

[DesertRose]

Jonathan,
Don't you guys live in a mud hut with skunks in your well?
They probably just thought the place was deserted. :sombrero:

:xxrotflma :xxrotflma

 

[ntsqd]

Jonathan, I had a thought on the way to work this morning. What you need are some black fatigues, black face paint, a flat black wooden replica of a Barrett 82A1/M107 .50 BMG with a real (though cheep) 36x target scope on it, and a prone shooter's mat. Have the mat in place somewhere easily seen from that position.

When they see you glassing them with that "rifle" they'll probably leave a stain on the rocks.

 

[Wanderlusty]

Registration for all ATVs is the obvious first answer. Here's a statistic to scare you:

The number of titled all-terrain vehicles in Arizona went from 51,000 in December 1998 to more than 230,000 in July 2006.

WOW.....

Exponential growth for sure.....

I don't have the stats for Arkansas, but I do notice that there are a lot more ATV dealers than just a few years ago.

I also notice ATV's in places they 'should' seem out of place. We live in a subdivision ( ) and in this one, and the previous one we lived in as well, at least a couple folks have ATV's....actually SEVERAL have ATV's, but at least a couple who have them, ride them around the subdivision. And FAST. I found tracks in my yard a few months back where they cut through. Before we moved in, a fence behind our property was mowed down by a guy on an ATV who was using a drainage ditch as a 'mud bog' and lost control. It knocked a hole in the common subdivision fence, as well as the corner of my neighbors fence. His 3 dogs got out. Luckily, they were retrieved before they got too far.

So....this ATV issue goes beyond wilderness conservation. There is a serious need for licensure and education....but it just isn't happening....

 

[Scott Brady]

Acting like a fool and a jerk is not a class issue.

For the most part, that is true.

However, nearly all of the offenders on ATV's I find are most certainly from another class. "classless"

And don't think that I am associating money with anything related to education and success. My definition of all things related to wealth, knowledge and success have all been entirely redefined in the last few years. i.e., someone on a small sail boat in the Sea of Cortez that only graduated from high school, yet reads daily and speaks three languages and has travelled the globe is more than wealthy and successful in my mind.

And yes, I do associate the Yahoos with Walmart, and I will make no apologies for that. If anyone that shopped there even spent ten minutes researching the negative impact that chain has had on our country, small towns, packaging trash, death of the mom and pop stores, complete loss of an entire retail segment, and nearly complete funding of a communist military that we will likely fight in the future, one would never step foot into that place again. The people that run that empire, the people that support it and the garbage packaged as products are all extreme warning signs of things to come for our country. Yet most bury their head in the sand and say, give me another $3.99 toy for my kid, or $7.99 FRS radio, or $14.98 dog food made in China.

I don't want to go more into that, as it will quickly slide into political debate. That is just my little rant before coffee this morning, so take it with a grain of salt (Made in North America Salt, purchased from a locally owned grocer, of course) :shakin:

 

[Martyn]

I see lots of talk of ATV control, limits and training of hunters, even suggestions of Eugenics to help the situation. Nothing on gun control.

Seems a little unreasonable to suggest we place limitations upon everything else and allow the weapons to remain at liberty ???

I would have thought that reasonably minded people such as ourselves, even the pro hunters and NRA members would see that this is part of the equation. Or is it so sacred a subject that we dare not bring it up?

 

[Mike S]

Martyn

Actually it is very rare for someone to be shot or killed in a hunting accident. In these few cases it seems that the gun is not at fault, but the operator that was in error.

I do not think that gun control is an answer to the subject under discussion. That battle has largely been fought over the last 30 years, and where we are now is likely to be the status quo for the near term future.

The problem being discussed here, to me at least, is indicative of a larger social problem. The values associated with learning and earning the privledge of hunting has given way to a sense of entitlement. This seems to be evident in many areas of outdoor activity. This lack of consideration and respect has resulted in closure of free hunting access by many landowners.

ATVs are a symptom of this - I seldom see anyone older than 50 hunting from an ATV. I do see a lot of younger people riding them. It would seem that younger people would better able to walk through the country than an older person. I am over 60, and can easily manage a 10 to 15 mile walk behind my dogs while bird hunting - and I do not at all consider myself as exceptional in this regard. So why do we 'need' ATVs for hunting? I do not think we do, it's just another product that can be sold to a huge market.

 

[Scott Brady]

Guns already have controls in place, ATVs in AZ do not. Hunters must have a hunting license, and their guns are purchased with specific controls.

I am only suggesting that ATVs MUST have a license plate and be ridden by licensed drivers. That would immediately reduce the problem in AZ.

 

[Martyn]

Very valid and well though out points, I'm not in disagreement will all of it.

However if you pull everything together the ATV, the hunter, the gun, and add that to a lack of enforcement the situation gets out of hand.

How many of us are likely to confront the owner of an ATV who has just torn up the environment when they are armed with a gun? How many of us are likely to confront a hunter for any reason if they are armed with a gun?

For me it's the intimidation fact of the weapon that is scary. And the fact that gun ownership is not limited to the skilled trained owner, but to anyone who can show they are of age, a resident of a State, and can provide a thumb print (I do realize that regulation are different between the States).

If I am then to believe what I'm being told, that a large segment of the owners of ATV's are beer drinking individuals of low IQ, I think we have a problem.

The lack of confrontation (amicable confrontation) means that an opportunity to inform and enlighten the other party is lost. No dialogue to show the opposite side of the situation occurs. No education takes place. No progress is made.

The registration of the ATV makes sense if you want to report an offense, given they have a registration plate. But this is retribution not education. The education would have to come with the licensing.

 

[Mike S]

Very valid and well though out points, I'm not in disagreement will all of it.

However if you pull everything together the ATV, the hunter, the gun, and add that to a lack of enforcement the situation gets out of hand.

How many of us are likely to confront the owner of an ATV who has just torn up the environment when they are armed with a gun? How many of us are likely to confront a hunter for any reason if they are armed with a gun?

For me it's the intimidation fact of the weapon that is scary. And the fact that gun ownership is not limited to the skilled trained owner, but to anyone who can show they are of age, a resident of a State, and can provide a thumb print (I do realize that regulation are different between the States).

If I am then to believe what I'm being told, that a large segment of the owners of ATV's are beer drinking individuals of low IQ, I think we have a problem.

The lack of confrontation (amicable confrontation) means that an opportunity to inform and enlighten the other party is lost. No dialogue to show the opposite side of the situation occurs. No education takes place. No progress is made.

The registration of the ATV makes sense if you want to report an offense, given they have a registration plate. But this is retribution not education. The education would have to come with the licensing.

Martyn, I think you have it partl correct. but there are some things left out...

1. FIREARMS - Purchase of a firearm is subject to both state and Federal regulations - and a mandatory wait while a background check is performed - they take a serial number from the gun and proof of residence, citizenship, etc. prior to delivery. The BATF takes compliance by sellers VERY seriously.

2. HUNTING is subject to a different set of state regulations - a license is required. This requires anyone (exceptions according to age by state) to have passed a recognized firearms safety education class - at least one full day of instruction on safe handling, firearms capability, and related laws within the state. This is required to buy a hunting license. The exception is that many states do not require this for hunters buying non-resident licenses, or for persons over a certain age - usually to allow people born before a certain date, WHO ALREADY ARE LICENSED under the law, to continue to be licensed without the requirement. I firmly believe that this is one of the major reasons that deaths form firearms when huntng is so rare.

There is no reason that licensing and education on use and law regarding ATVs should not take place. It does not restrain the right of people to own or use ATVs, but would regulate what seems to be a growing problem in many Western states.