INEOS Grenadier

[mk216v]

Even the idea of having to do a factory reset for the truck to function (as in, driveable) makes me nervous! I remember one time getting a Christmas Tree dash on my Jeep. Everything was running fine, but the RPM gauge was going nuts, warning lights were blinking, etc. and the fix in that case was disconnecting the negative battery terminal for a couple of minutes and then reconnecting it. As soon as I did that, it was like new again. It was still basically a new vehicle at that time so I did take it to the dealer, and learned it may have been due to a voltage issue from the battery, but that’s the level of robustness I’d hope for from the Gren — anything more than a “turn off the power and turn it back on again” to resolve a fault in the electronics would be getting into the “too complex” realm I think!

This would be extreme. Point is as you mentioned, the more electronics and modules, the more possibilities to be in a world of hurt. Hopefully Ineos makes the Green simpler vs not.

 

[nickw]

Indeed - $30k might be a bit light by the looks of things today, but there are a handful in Canada in the $50-$70k range, and in Canada we might even see some ex-military ones up for government auction from time to time in the future. I'm personally not a huge fan of the platform, but most of my reasoning for that is entirely subjective and I fully acknowledge it is/can be a great choice if folks are willing to tackle the compromises you mentioned




The number of ECUs and electronic systems is less relevant than how reliant on those systems the vehicle is to function, and in reality we don’t know about the Grenadier until it’s been released and used by folks for a few months. But what it comes down to is that all of these vehicles will break — what happens when they do?

With the New Defender, it appears that at least some of the ways it breaks — an OTA update failing, a severed cable, a few other examples anecdotally around the web — suggests that it sits down on you and won’t move. That’s inconvenient in the driveway. It’s potentially deadly in the backcountry. It’s so reliant on the electronics in order to do its job — which is make the motor mote and the wheels wheel — that when those electronics go wrong, it seems that at least in some cases the motor no longer motes and thus the wheels don’t wheel, and it cannot be fixed on the side of the trail in these cases.

The Grenadier is claimed to be designed with Bushproofness in mind — which means even if the electronics go wrong, the motor might still mote and the wheels still wheel. To quote from a Toyota slogan that I heard on TV from Richard Hammond — “Lots of 4x4s will get you there, but a Land Cruiser will always get you home”. This was said after his rear diff exploded and he was forced to finish his journey by disconnecting the rear prop shaft and have his FJ40 crawl it’s way forward with it’s front wheels from locking the transfer case — that’s a trail side repair, doable with hand tools, and the rig got him where he needed to go (Sort of…but I won’t ruin the ending of that special for those who have yet to see it!). The Grenadier is meant to be designed with that fix-it-with-bailing-wire ethos in mind; the New Defender is most definitely not. If you had a Diff explode on the New Defender, because all of it is electronically controlled, I’d be willing to bet my paycheque that the vehicle would throw a code and the best case scenario is a low-speed “limp home” but I think even that is optimistic - I would suspect it would sit down completely, given the experiences of others with major failures.

That being said, the majority of New Defender owners seem thrilled with the rig and it works great for them. But there’s a handful (okay, maybe two handfuls) of stories where the rig has not worked great, and it wasn’t the kind of thing a guy could fix with hand tools and gumption - it requires dealership support and intervention and a tow truck. So for that reason, the Gren is appealing, because it’s supposed to be fixable by the shade-tree mechanic on the side of the trail — but we don’t know if they’ll deliver on the promise till it’s been on the market and a few folks have broken them. There will almost certainly be situations in the Gren that do cause it to fail — ECUs control the fuel flow and spark after all — but there are a lot of other critical systems (4x4, diff locks, suspension, etc.) that appear to be pretty analog in the Gren (and thus a good chance of a fella bodging together a fix in the back-of-beyond) as compared to the New Defender, which relies on digital systems for a lot more things.

The cool thing about the FJ40....and 55/60/70s, is the rear diff and front diff are exactly the same. Probably not realistic to swap diffs in the field, but in a remote village with very basic tools you could swap out that rear diff with your front one and at least have a rwd rig.

 

[SkiWill]

The cool thing about the FJ40....and 55/60/70s, is the rear diff and front diff are exactly the same. Probably not realistic to swap diffs in the field, but in a remote village with very basic tools you could swap out that rear diff with your front one and at least have a rwd rig.

That is one of the things that I love about Japanese design in general. They're very good about standardization and making sure things can be serviced with interchangeable parts whenever possible. I didn't realize that was the case, but I'm not surprised. It seems right in line with the work I've done with Japanese firms over the years and an excellent idea.

 

[Jc1986.carter]

Indeed - $30k might be a bit light by the looks of things today, but there are a handful in Canada in the $50-$70k range, and in Canada we might even see some ex-military ones up for government auction from time to time in the future. I'm personally not a huge fan of the platform, but most of my reasoning for that is entirely subjective and I fully acknowledge it is/can be a great choice if folks are willing to tackle the compromises you mentioned




The number of ECUs and electronic systems is less relevant than how reliant on those systems the vehicle is to function, and in reality we don’t know about the Grenadier until it’s been released and used by folks for a few months. But what it comes down to is that all of these vehicles will break — what happens when they do?

With the New Defender, it appears that at least some of the ways it breaks — an OTA update failing, a severed cable, a few other examples anecdotally around the web — suggests that it sits down on you and won’t move. That’s inconvenient in the driveway. It’s potentially deadly in the backcountry. It’s so reliant on the electronics in order to do its job — which is make the motor mote and the wheels wheel — that when those electronics go wrong, it seems that at least in some cases the motor no longer motes and thus the wheels don’t wheel, and it cannot be fixed on the side of the trail in these cases.

The Grenadier is claimed to be designed with Bushproofness in mind — which means even if the electronics go wrong, the motor might still mote and the wheels still wheel. To quote from a Toyota slogan that I heard on TV from Richard Hammond — “Lots of 4x4s will get you there, but a Land Cruiser will always get you home”. This was said after his rear diff exploded and he was forced to finish his journey by disconnecting the rear prop shaft and have his FJ40 crawl it’s way forward with it’s front wheels from locking the transfer case — that’s a trail side repair, doable with hand tools, and the rig got him where he needed to go (Sort of…but I won’t ruin the ending of that special for those who have yet to see it!). The Grenadier is meant to be designed with that fix-it-with-bailing-wire ethos in mind; the New Defender is most definitely not. If you had a Diff explode on the New Defender, because all of it is electronically controlled, I’d be willing to bet my paycheque that the vehicle would throw a code and the best case scenario is a low-speed “limp home” but I think even that is optimistic - I would suspect it would sit down completely, given the experiences of others with major failures.

That being said, the majority of New Defender owners seem thrilled with the rig and it works great for them. But there’s a handful (okay, maybe two handfuls) of stories where the rig has not worked great, and it wasn’t the kind of thing a guy could fix with hand tools and gumption - it requires dealership support and intervention and a tow truck. So for that reason, the Gren is appealing, because it’s supposed to be fixable by the shade-tree mechanic on the side of the trail — but we don’t know if they’ll deliver on the promise till it’s been on the market and a few folks have broken them. There will almost certainly be situations in the Gren that do cause it to fail — ECUs control the fuel flow and spark after all — but there are a lot of other critical systems (4x4, diff locks, suspension, etc.) that appear to be pretty analog in the Gren (and thus a good chance of a fella bodging together a fix in the back-of-beyond) as compared to the New Defender, which relies on digital systems for a lot more things.

You do remember in that special, the fj40 was also the only one that didn’t survive correct?

 

[mk216v]

That is one of the things that I love about Japanese design in general. They're very good about standardization and making sure things can be serviced with interchangeable parts whenever possible. I didn't realize that was the case, but I'm not surprised. It seems right in line with the work I've done with Japanese firms over the years and an excellent idea.

Agreed, but too bad the vehicles lack quite a bit of soul. Horses for courses right?

 

[T-Willy]

A few concerns (besides the amount of markup these units will get when the hit the US) is how the service network will work (rep could not answer this yet) and although a small gripe for me the rear passenger seats do not fold flat which I feel is a miss.

Does anyone know if the rear seats can be unbolted and removed? Given under-seat storage and batteries, it seems perhaps not. For me, this is a big deal, as our touring configuration (80 series Land Cruisers) relies on removal of rear seats and an entirely flat cargo space aft of the front seats.

Folding seats compromise most of the mid-ship cargo space for heavy, flat-bottomed gear. This poses a real problem for proper load placement.

 

[mk216v]

Does anyone know if the rear seats can be unbolted and removed? Given under-seat storage and batteries, it seems perhaps not. For me, this is a big deal, as our touring configuration (80 series Land Cruisers) relies on removal of rear seats and an entirely flat cargo space aft of the front seats.

Folding seats compromise most of the mid-ship cargo space for heavy, flat-bottomed gear. This poses a real problem for proper load placement.

Agree 110%! If Ineos missed this detail, they should be tar'd and feather'd.

 

[NVLOC]

Agreed, but too bad the vehicles lack quite a bit of soul. Horses for courses right?

"Soul" or emotional attachment/appeal to a vehicle if that is what you mean, is earned not bought. When a vehicles brings you home from the bush time and time again over 20+ years of constant use, it earns "soul".

 

[mk216v]

"Soul" or emotional attachment/appeal to a vehicle if that is what you mean, is earned not bought. When a vehicles brings you home from the bush time and time again over 20+ years of constant use, it earns "soul".

I don't disagree with your 2nd sentence, but I also don't agree with your 1st sentence. By soul I meant driver engagement, comfort, enjoyment/pleasure of driving. Yes, there's pleasure of driving in having more confidence that a Toyota will most likely break down less than a Rover, but some vehicles drive like appliances and have no soul IMHO. Personally I enjoy a happy medium, which is why I'm accumulated a 2nd Porsche Cayenne at this point (surpasses the G-Wagen in my view). YMMV, and we'll see how the Grenadier shapes up.

 

[SkiWill]

Agreed, but too bad the vehicles lack quite a bit of soul. Horses for courses right?

I know. I drive a Land Rover. I guess that tells you a lot about my personal vs. professional priorities, or maybe I'm just a champ at compartmentalizing...

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

You do remember in that special, the fj40 was also the only one that didn’t survive correct?

Hey, no spoilers!

And yes. But it was a stunt intended to be entertainment. If that’s how you use your 4x4 fill your boots but I’m not sure there is one - Toyota or not - designed to survive that particular treatment! Still, the point he made when he suffered a much more typical failure stands and illustrates the overall point I was trying to make. And that’s one of my favourite specials — from the Barge to the Belt of Many Things to the Outdoors pants to the “altitude sickness” medication it was a hoot. Jeremy’s rig was the most pleasant of surprises!

"Soul" or emotional attachment/appeal to a vehicle if that is what you mean, is earned not bought. When a vehicles brings you home from the bush time and time again over 20+ years of constant use, it earns "soul".

It can be earned for sure — one of my favourite vehicles for adventure is, and always will be, a Kia Sorrento. I got stuck in an ice storm where nothing was moving and highways were closed, but that little Kia on winter tires was plucky as all get-out, and I fell in love with that rental. A close second is a Chevy Aveo, that I enjoyed off-roading by accident in the desert in Jordan at 3 AM trying to get to Wadi Musa. Both are objectively mediocre cars in most respects (The Kia’s had some nice features I admit) but I would happily have either one — those specific ones, that is - in my garage as souvenirs if I had the cash.

But some cars you get behind the wheel and they just “feel” right from the get go. Others feel wrong - I had some time behind the wheel of an Acura TL about 5 years ago; it was objectively an incredible car. Well designed and engineered, eye catching, super fast, and everything was “tight”. But it felt like an appliance, like @mk216v said. Cars are like that - it’s totally subjective as I’m sure some folks loved the Acura, but the nature of cars is that not every one sets a person’s soul on fire, and thats a good thing because it makes the ones that do even more special.

 

[Jc1986.carter]

Hey, no spoilers!

And yes. But it was a stunt intended to be entertainment. If that’s how you use your 4x4 fill your boots but I’m not sure there is one - Toyota or not - designed to survive that particular treatment! Still, the point he made when he suffered a much more typical failure stands and illustrates the overall point I was trying to make. And that’s one of my favourite specials — from the Barge to the Belt of Many Things to the Outdoors pants to the “altitude sickness” medication it was a hoot. Jeremy’s rig was the most pleasant of surprises!



It can be earned for sure — one of my favourite vehicles for adventure is, and always will be, a Kia Sorrento. I got stuck in an ice storm where nothing was moving and highways were closed, but that little Kia on winter tires was plucky as all get-out, and I fell in love with that rental. A close second is a Chevy Aveo, that I enjoyed off-roading by accident in the desert in Jordan at 3 AM trying to get to Wadi Musa. Both are objectively mediocre cars in most respects (The Kia’s had some nice features I admit) but I would happily have either one — those specific ones, that is - in my garage as souvenirs if I had the cash.

But some cars you get behind the wheel and they just “feel” right from the get go. Others feel wrong - I had some time behind the wheel of an Acura TL about 5 years ago; it was objectively an incredible car. Well designed and engineered, eye catching, super fast, and everything was “tight”. But it felt like an appliance, like @mk216v said. Cars are like that - it’s totally subjective as I’m sure some folks loved the Acura, but the nature of cars is that not every one sets a person’s soul on fire, and thats a good thing because it makes the ones that do even more special.

I was just razzing your. And you are correct about the entrainment and the cruiser being able to crawl to finish the race. Like in Monty python amd holy grail, it’s just a flesh wound!

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I was just razzing your. And you are correct about the entrainment and the cruiser being able to crawl to finish the race. Like in Monty python amd holy grail, it’s just a flesh wound!

Oh gosh yes, razz away! Sorry if I didn’t seem to be responding accordingly to your post, hard to read tone in a forum but yeah I interpreted your post as simply good-natured razzing on what was a great bit of TV!

I imagine the FJ-40 at the bottom of the hill “C’mon then, is that all you’ve got?”

 

[rlynch356]

Anyway.. Todays Expo vid.. I live in the area and know those trails at where they did that video...

Color me impressed with it so far...

 

[Rovertrader]

Even the idea of having to do a factory reset for the truck to function (as in, driveable) makes me nervous! I remember one time getting a Christmas Tree dash on my Jeep. Everything was running fine, but the RPM gauge was going nuts, warning lights were blinking, etc. and the fix in that case was disconnecting the negative battery terminal for a couple of minutes and then reconnecting it. As soon as I did that, it was like new again. It was still basically a new vehicle at that time so I did take it to the dealer, and learned it may have been due to a voltage issue from the battery, but that’s the level of robustness I’d hope for from the Gren — anything more than a “turn off the power and turn it back on again” to resolve a fault in the electronics would be getting into the “too complex” realm I think!

This is so true for me!! Been wheeling and wrenching for over 50 years, love my Tithonus on 37’s, locked, Tdi, etc. with absolutely no electrics- a lousy 9V battery could keep the fuel shut off open. Really planned on the Grenadier but while the BMW is a great power plant, it alone comes with its own host of sensors/electrics. We actually still ‘get out there’ -often very remote, but with a (human) body full of hardware, it really makes it difficult to field repair about anything.
All that to say, the Ineos seemed a good mix of new and traditional. However, regardless of how many test miles, do you really want to be first on the block- or worse, first in the boonies- to discover a weakness. Add to that all the modern day supply/shipping issues even if you could diagnose the problem, and possibly/likely a handful of proprietary tools/scanners needed to be ‘independent’.
So, is the Grenadier the savior? Or perhaps a new Bronco (driven a few, like them, huge support system), or whatever, though the newest Rovers (D5/Defender) don’t light my fire. LR3’s are about the best ‘median’ of modern/traditional/reliable but they’re getting long in the tooth as well…

It is truly a tough conundrum for an older warn out adventurer. I’ve got a pair of ‘13 Husqvarnas, a Terra and a Strada, as they fit the sweet spot of capable/reliable/relatively simple bikes. But finding a 4 wheel counterpart isn’t so easy it seems. Conversely, more choices abound than ever before for the masses, but for specialized/remote travels, not so much!!