plainjaneFJC
Deplorable
He is just a typical car and driver type clown. Men that drive cars and have never had dirty hands.
INEOS Grenadier
- Thread starter Correus
- Start date
nickw
Adventurer
All initial reviews have been favorable, I've seen that too, but for an "expedition" rig how couldn't they be? I think the true metric for these rigs is how they will fair 2-5-10 years time, long term, reliability. Any modern rig feels good in the first year and on a test drive, smooth, composed, etc, which is not surprising.
What I'd like to see is somebody digging into and dissecting the engineering decision IG made, diff size, u-joint size, ability to work on rig, general build quality, field repairability...throw it up on a stand and get down to brass tacks.
luckyjoe
Adventurer
This info will surface reasonably soon - There are literally hundreds of Grenadiers hitting East and West coast ports this month. Owners are also putting them to task in South Africa and Australia.
nickw
Adventurer
Our of sheer curiosity - in markets with LC70's and Patrols and a history of reliability and tribal knowledge on both of those vehicles, what does the IG offer that the other two don't? Here in the US this is somewhat of a unicorn....
I am early (I mean really early like in the first 2 mins after the reservations opened, early) hand raiser for the Gren. Recently I had the chance to take a very extended test drive and peer inside, under the hood and under the chassis of the Grenadier.
For comparison, I have a 1997 G 463 that I wheel reasonably hard. Just came back from an 8 day trip across Mojave and Death Valley. I have wheeled both Defender 90 and 110s in the classic body styles. I have shared my thoughts earlier at length, in this thread, about the Grenadier
Here are my thoughts comparing the G and the Gren with the mindset of a tourer/ traveler. Someone who likes to find cool places to visit and camp and will 4 wheel to get there but does not look for pure 4 wheeling as a goal.
- The Gren has a pretty solid feeling drivetrain underneath. The only vehicles that are more stoutly built than it are the G Wagens (especially pre MBUsa ones and 461s) and LC200
- The wheel articulation is superior to the the G Wagen. Magna Styr knew about that lacuna in the G design and engineered the Gren a bit better but it’s not a Jeep or classic Defender in terms of sheer flex. It’s akin to LC200 I’d say
- The wheel wells can take a 33” easily 35” also looks possible (maybe an inch or two of lift) but the spare can’t go beyond 33. The smaller door won’t open with 35” tires mounted
- Speaking of spare the Gren has a better engineered spare mount than the one in my G Wagen. I had a chance to pull the plastics and see the inner bracing in the PTO version and it’s well braced. So long term should handle corrugations well
- The underbody is reasonably well tucked and I don’t see any glaring areas for catching on things but still could be better. Especially under the transfer case brace
- The petrol tank is pitifully small for any expedition work and an aftermarket tank is necessary. The good news is I saw space for atleast another 25-30 gallons there. 20-25 gallons between the frame rails and another 5 -7 gallons (maybe aux water tank) where the diesels adblue tanks are. Ineos seriously missed a trick by not putting saddle tanks here for the petrol Grens. Maybe because the exhaust routes through that area
- Speaking of exhaust it’s seriously large diametered and well tucked
- The dealer told me it’ll take 87 RON petrol or 91. 85 only in a pinch but not advised
- The engine compartment is quite stuffed with the engine with minimal space for adding anything. I honestly wouldnt add anything like compressors etc there due to heat
- I like the fact that the battery system is under the 2nd row of seats. There is space therefor a compressor and some aux electrical gubbins. Mind you this was in a Trialmaster with no subwoofer package
- Why they chose to charge $2000 for aux electrical package and not put in a lithium battery beats me. They should have done so from factory
- Speaking of engine compartment I couldnt see a dipstick to check oil or transmission fluid level!! The dealer told me it’s electronically checked. Uggh. More sensors
- The interior feels snug and a bit dark. It’s not as spacious as the exterior size indicates. It’s not as claustrophobic as the Jeep but not as spacious as the LC200 or a pre MBUsa G Wagen. It’s probably on par with a 2010s G Wagen. However the green house in a G Wagen feels a lot more airy. The A pillars in a Gren are really thick and the window brow line is a bit lower so it feels a bit more snug
- The Recaros are simply perfect. Atleast for me and my 6’ 230lbs frame
- The Steering is direct but very loose feeling with no auto recentering. IMhO not a big issue but you will feel weird the first few hundred miles of driving it. My G Wagens steering is also loose but off center it weighs up very well. The Gren is a lot lighter even off center
- The on road manners are spot on both in the highway and in city roads (didn’t drive a production version off-road). The cabin noise is low and the general NVH levels are good. It’s not a Cadillac but miles better than a Jeep or a Bronco. Again the LC200 is a high watermark in this company. My G Wagen is more agricultural but still better than a Jeep
- The radiator and HVAC system looks very beefy to me
- The dealer told me that we will need to bring the Gren to the dealership if we want the warranty to be honored. Obviously they will help me field diagnose in case I’m stuck somewhere and call them for help. But no open computer access or modifications. This is a bit worrying because that probably means you can’t field service any electronic items
- Speaking of modifications my biggest gripe with the petrol Gren is that they gave it the lower spec ZF transmission with a peak torque handling of 500Nm. The Gren puts out 450Nm so not much headroom to modify. I don’t care about modifying the Gren but I hate that they didn’t put the HD ZF transmission from the Gren diesel in it
- The interior plastics are meh. Not that great. I can see the load area plastics getting quite scuffed up because the panels don’t feel that high quality and tough. My G Wagen is positively amazing here for a 27 year old car
- oh and I thought I’d love the overhead off-road controls but I don’t think in real life I will. It’s a cool setup but unless button and switch positions are memorized it can be a distraction while you are trying to gauge the terrain and choose lockers etc. but maybe I’m over thinking this. I do know that having the overhead console means making a pop top camper need a roof height increase. You can’t cut the whole roof off. Look at the Mulgo pop top camper for the Grenadier
- A lot of people gripe about the cost. I think that’s nonsense. I am right now preparing for a long trip all the way past the Arctic circle. I know the cost to build a car for that. The Gren is a car that can do the trip right out of the showroom. If you build out an LC200/ Jeep/ 4Runner etc it’s going to be sneezingly close to $80-90K or way more like 110-120k in case of LC200
Hope this helps. I am still a bit on the fence because there are other considerations I need to solve for that the Gren doesn’t do well. But for anyone who is looking for a modern off road vehicle with solid axles, high payload and a capable travel companion the Grenadier is the only choice other than a Jeep.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
For comparison, I have a 1997 G 463 that I wheel reasonably hard. Just came back from an 8 day trip across Mojave and Death Valley. I have wheeled both Defender 90 and 110s in the classic body styles. I have shared my thoughts earlier at length, in this thread, about the Grenadier
Here are my thoughts comparing the G and the Gren with the mindset of a tourer/ traveler. Someone who likes to find cool places to visit and camp and will 4 wheel to get there but does not look for pure 4 wheeling as a goal.
- The Gren has a pretty solid feeling drivetrain underneath. The only vehicles that are more stoutly built than it are the G Wagens (especially pre MBUsa ones and 461s) and LC200
- The wheel articulation is superior to the the G Wagen. Magna Styr knew about that lacuna in the G design and engineered the Gren a bit better but it’s not a Jeep or classic Defender in terms of sheer flex. It’s akin to LC200 I’d say
- The wheel wells can take a 33” easily 35” also looks possible (maybe an inch or two of lift) but the spare can’t go beyond 33. The smaller door won’t open with 35” tires mounted
- Speaking of spare the Gren has a better engineered spare mount than the one in my G Wagen. I had a chance to pull the plastics and see the inner bracing in the PTO version and it’s well braced. So long term should handle corrugations well
- The underbody is reasonably well tucked and I don’t see any glaring areas for catching on things but still could be better. Especially under the transfer case brace
- The petrol tank is pitifully small for any expedition work and an aftermarket tank is necessary. The good news is I saw space for atleast another 25-30 gallons there. 20-25 gallons between the frame rails and another 5 -7 gallons (maybe aux water tank) where the diesels adblue tanks are. Ineos seriously missed a trick by not putting saddle tanks here for the petrol Grens. Maybe because the exhaust routes through that area
- Speaking of exhaust it’s seriously large diametered and well tucked
- The dealer told me it’ll take 87 RON petrol or 91. 85 only in a pinch but not advised
- The engine compartment is quite stuffed with the engine with minimal space for adding anything. I honestly wouldnt add anything like compressors etc there due to heat
- I like the fact that the battery system is under the 2nd row of seats. There is space therefor a compressor and some aux electrical gubbins. Mind you this was in a Trialmaster with no subwoofer package
- Why they chose to charge $2000 for aux electrical package and not put in a lithium battery beats me. They should have done so from factory
- Speaking of engine compartment I couldnt see a dipstick to check oil or transmission fluid level!! The dealer told me it’s electronically checked. Uggh. More sensors
- The interior feels snug and a bit dark. It’s not as spacious as the exterior size indicates. It’s not as claustrophobic as the Jeep but not as spacious as the LC200 or a pre MBUsa G Wagen. It’s probably on par with a 2010s G Wagen. However the green house in a G Wagen feels a lot more airy. The A pillars in a Gren are really thick and the window brow line is a bit lower so it feels a bit more snug
- The Recaros are simply perfect. Atleast for me and my 6’ 230lbs frame
- The Steering is direct but very loose feeling with no auto recentering. IMhO not a big issue but you will feel weird the first few hundred miles of driving it. My G Wagens steering is also loose but off center it weighs up very well. The Gren is a lot lighter even off center
- The on road manners are spot on both in the highway and in city roads (didn’t drive a production version off-road). The cabin noise is low and the general NVH levels are good. It’s not a Cadillac but miles better than a Jeep or a Bronco. Again the LC200 is a high watermark in this company. My G Wagen is more agricultural but still better than a Jeep
- The radiator and HVAC system looks very beefy to me
- The dealer told me that we will need to bring the Gren to the dealership if we want the warranty to be honored. Obviously they will help me field diagnose in case I’m stuck somewhere and call them for help. But no open computer access or modifications. This is a bit worrying because that probably means you can’t field service any electronic items
- Speaking of modifications my biggest gripe with the petrol Gren is that they gave it the lower spec ZF transmission with a peak torque handling of 500Nm. The Gren puts out 450Nm so not much headroom to modify. I don’t care about modifying the Gren but I hate that they didn’t put the HD ZF transmission from the Gren diesel in it
- The interior plastics are meh. Not that great. I can see the load area plastics getting quite scuffed up because the panels don’t feel that high quality and tough. My G Wagen is positively amazing here for a 27 year old car
- oh and I thought I’d love the overhead off-road controls but I don’t think in real life I will. It’s a cool setup but unless button and switch positions are memorized it can be a distraction while you are trying to gauge the terrain and choose lockers etc. but maybe I’m over thinking this. I do know that having the overhead console means making a pop top camper need a roof height increase. You can’t cut the whole roof off. Look at the Mulgo pop top camper for the Grenadier
- A lot of people gripe about the cost. I think that’s nonsense. I am right now preparing for a long trip all the way past the Arctic circle. I know the cost to build a car for that. The Gren is a car that can do the trip right out of the showroom. If you build out an LC200/ Jeep/ 4Runner etc it’s going to be sneezingly close to $80-90K or way more like 110-120k in case of LC200
Hope this helps. I am still a bit on the fence because there are other considerations I need to solve for that the Gren doesn’t do well. But for anyone who is looking for a modern off road vehicle with solid axles, high payload and a capable travel companion the Grenadier is the only choice other than a Jeep.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
SkiWill
Well-known member
The dealer is incorrect that it has to be dealer serviced to be warrantied. There are right to repair laws in the US, but the burden of proof is on the owner and the dealer/manufacturer can be a real PITA about it.
However, the fact that a dealer is saying this is a major broken promise. The whole premise of the Grenadier was that it would have an open source repair manual to be repaired anywhere. What the dealer is pushing is just as egregious as Land Rover and probably worse since Ineos said before the launch the complete and total opposite that it would be a user serviceable vehicle without proprietary nonsense to service.
Perhaps I am mistaken and only warranty repairs can be completed at a dealer, but even in that case, no thanks. What happens when something breaks 1,000 miles away from an Ineos dealership and it can't be warrantied? Completely defeats the purpose of a built for purpose enthusiast owned vehicle.
I gripe about the cost and will continue to gripe about the cost. The idea that an LC200 or a 4Runner or even a VW can't be driven off the lot to the north slope of Alaska without tens of thousands of dollars in modifications but a Grenadier somehow can is not accurate. How did all of the clunkers on the north slope get up there in the first place? It wasn't teleportation. They drove. My high school math teacher drove a 1964 Series II Land Rover bone stock from Maine to the northernmost part of Alaska and then completed the Pan America nearly 30 years ago when that trip was far more rugged than today. It was slow and uncomfortable, but he made it. People do it in VWs. A Rolls Royce made it from Cape Town to London. Maybe they didn't do all of the side trails, but $80-90k is absolutely not needed to go have a fantastic adventure in the arctic.
I may still buy a Grenadier because I'm too tall to be comfortable in a 4Runner and I think LC200s are also absurdly overpriced, but let's be honest. The Grenadier is a wealthy man's toy conceived and brought to market by a wealthy man who wanted a toy. That's not inherently bad, but like ANY vehicle, its many pros are met with an equal number of cons. Pointing out the tradeoffs, of which cost is a really significant one, isn't out bounds. It's part of the discussion.
"The idea that an LC200 or a 4Runner or even a VW can't be driven off the lot to the north slope of Alaska without tens of thousands of dollars in modifications but a Grenadier somehow can is not accurate"
I'll second that. I drove the Dempster up to Tuk a month or so ago and it rained for days. The road was a mess but the locals were flying past me in Prius's and several Geo Metros. I was almost embarassed to drive my fairly well built truck up there. I camped with a guy who drove a VW diesel wagon pulling a tear drop who made it from Nova Scotia to both Tuk and Prudhoe Bay with no issues.
I'll second that. I drove the Dempster up to Tuk a month or so ago and it rained for days. The road was a mess but the locals were flying past me in Prius's and several Geo Metros. I was almost embarassed to drive my fairly well built truck up there. I camped with a guy who drove a VW diesel wagon pulling a tear drop who made it from Nova Scotia to both Tuk and Prudhoe Bay with no issues.
Agreed on both your points that if you are doing the Dalton Highway or Pan American or even the new graded trail to Tuk any car will do. Hell I think someone in the forum here did it in a Ho da Accord. That wasn’t my point. My point was if you decide to wheel it a bit, go off flat roads to hunt for a camp spot or explore a bit where your bumpers etc can get hung up you need to mod. Again it’s all horses for courses. Not needed but wanted. So is the Grenadier.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
luckyjoe
Adventurer
This is how all manufacturers handle warranty work.
nickw
Adventurer
You say the only vehicles more stoutly built are Gwagens and LC200 - can you elaborate on that?
For as simple as this rigs is being marketed as - all the sensors, and it has A LOT, worry me a bit....it's not the mechanical things these days, it's all the other stuff. I'm guessing the average IG buyer is not going be one that is going to drive around with check engine lights and sensor misbehaving.
The LC200's have very high resale making the initial hit a lot less painful along with great reliability but very costly parts, time will tell for the IG.
nickw
Adventurer
Reading between the lines he likely meant the only ones that can service it, due to software / proprietary systems, is likely a IG dealer. May be a sim story to the John Deere debacle.
SkiWill
Well-known member
True, but they don't advertise partnering with Bosch service centers to provide a global service network either.
utherjorge
Observer
I haven't read all of the replies, but do we get a "Why"?
Highlander
The Strong, Silent Type
Any modern US track that's got factory a locker and AT tires can do that. Right from the dealership.
There was a dude who drove his bright new GM 1500 3.0 diesel from Seattle to Deadhorse without any issue.
Cayenne-958-TDI
Active member
Principle reason for getting the IG is to explore Central & South America where ULSD is not available. Cayenne diesels got our attention after Jan Kalmar and two friends set the world speed record driving from Nord Cape Norway to Cape Town SA in less than nine days. He took his many other places like Australia to drive the entire coastline. Both ours and Jan's are totally stock 958 diesel with only body protection added. Below, next day temps were -40F, blizzard, 60mph wind for a -90F windchill - previous day ice raced on the frozen Yukon River at Dawson City. Second time to do this as part of a ten day 5,500 mile rally event. Photo from 2020 linked video 2016 - our rig is at 4:09. Have done several BDRs, Moab, Lolo-Magruder in the Bitter Roots, with many adventures in between. For more see 'Meet Otis' which is not current or complete as we are out exploring. Second photo is of 'Otis' being used to teach an advanced driving class at BCOR.
.
.