INEOS Grenadier

[SkiWill]

@ChasingOurTrunks,

Given that the axles are made by a tractor manufacturer specifically for the IG, I doubt there will be many common off the shelf components. TMaybe there will be some commonality for wheel bearings or some typical high wear items, but axle shafts, ring and pinions, etc. expect to be IG specific. This is where Toyota really shines. I hate most Toyota interiors (LC200 excepted), think most of their seats are medieval torture devices (LC200 excepted), and don't find them to be particularly appealing in many cases (LC200 excepted), but they're clearly engineered to be easy to assemble, easy to service, with loads of common parts, and cheap to run for a very long time from a maintenance standpoint. That's why the list of cars making 200,000 miles is dominated by Toyota and some LS V8 domestic SUVs.

When I started getting excited about the IG, it was because the price was going to be more Wrangler than Land Cruiser. I could justify the cost of increased BMW specific maintenance given the huge gulf in cost of entry. That's precisely why I drive a Land Rover and not Land Cruiser currently. I do maybe ~7,000 miles (12,000 km) of trips through the year. Given the small mileage, it made more sense to me to buy a used Land Rover at half the used Land Cruiser cost and keep a healthy maintenance budget because a Land Rover indisputably is more expensive to maintain than a Toyota.

My excitement has faded with the IG because, despite my questions, and a lot of looking, I haven't been able to get ahold of the maintenance manual to see if any of my BMW concerns are valid or not with the IG version of the B58, but given BMW engine design and class action lawsuits on timing chains which have now been relocated to the back of the engine it's not a really warm fuzzy feeling. Granted the B58 could be an absolute dream. After all, the Cummins 5.9 and 6.7 inline 6 architecture has to be one of the best motors of all time, but their 5.0 V8 was a total dud with compound turbo issues, a lack of parts, less power, but at least it consumed just as much fuel. The B58 could well surprise me. All manufacturers have ups and downs.

However, having to spend thousands to replace plastic cooling parts like on my Land Rover is fine if the vehicle is $30k less than a Land Cruiser, but now it's sounding like that cost difference will be pretty small when the IG goes on sale in NA. I can do Land Rover maintenance cost if it's $30k less than a Land Cruiser for the buy in. I won't do BMW/Land Rover maintenance cost when the buy in is close to the Land Cruiser. My ideally specced New Defender is $65k. I cannot get a Land Cruiser 300 in Lexus LX600 guise for less than $95,000. The big unknown is what is the IG going to cost and what is it going to cost to maintain?

Some of the BMW problems will let you know well before catastrophic failure if you're paying attention like oil leaks, valve guides, etc. The cooling system parts can go either way as well as turbo issues. Either way, I certainly wouldn't expect any cost savings for IG parts over BMW parts. Otherwise BMW owners will just buy IG parts.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Fair enough - that wasn't directly at you per-se, but the IG is getting all the attention, has a sub-forum for itself, people (in general) are going crazy over it and it's being marketed as a global expedition platform - it looks the part for sure, but I question it's technical merits.

I don't think the IG is immune to any of those issue you point out that could/have happened to the Defender. Solid axle rigs have issues too with suspension components.

Tom Sheppard had a problem very sim to what you point out in a Gwagen, heavy duty diesel manuf by arguably the best folks at doing that in arguably the most reliable expedition vehicle ever made, it happened in the middle of the Sahara and he had to drive out in limp home mode.

I'm just in the camp of show me WHY it's a suitable engine, I don't feel responsible to prove why it's not, but without a track record of success, using an engine that is commonly found in cars without a reputation in any sort of high GVWR offroad rig I think the onus is on Ineos to prove it!

Totally fair Nick - I actually agree with you with regards to the attention the Gren is getting. I think it's because it is trying to check a lot of boxes for specific use cases that other cars aren't focusing on, and that's getting people who have been somewhat underserved by the existing market quite excited. I think we're probably trying to answer the same questions just with a slightly different lens -- the question is, how good is this thing going to be in terms of the execution of the calimed design objectives. I expect it'll be good, but I totally appreciate folks being more reserved/skeptical on whether the execution will be decent enough to properly land what they are trying to land.

IG would definitely not be immune to the problems of the ND or even Tom's G-Wagen - anything that can break will eventually on any vehicle. My point is that the Gren's goal was that it can be fixed with basic tools by almost anyone. Conceptually it does appear to be leaning in that direction. Reparability anywhere was never the goal for ND, which means when it breaks, it's much more reliant on a limited proprietary network of experts for repair. I'm keen to see if/how IG does and just how close to the mark IG gets, but that's the broader goal, but I see this design priority as being significantly different between the vehicles.

In terms of why the engine is suitable - that's a very fair question and I think that's a much more of a natural opposite to my question of "what are people worried about". I think it gets at the meat of what we're talking about. What's good about this engine? What's bad about it? "It should be pretty good for the Gren, because it's pretty good for a BMW motor" leaves me with just as many questions as "it's no good because it's a complex BMW motor" -- I want the details.

I know why Ineos picked it - they wanted a turn-key engine (i.e. they never wanted to build their own motors). They wanted both diesel and petrol options with a lot of similar components that wouldn't require significant redesign of the chassis/vehicle to make it easy for manufacture and supply chain reasons. And they wanted long-term certainty (i.e. able to buy engines for 10 years) and the only engine that apparently checked all those boxes was the BMW. So, I know why Ineos though it was suitable from a business standpoint.

As for why it's suitable for the application - the torque and HP numbers look adequate for the load, and as SkiWill said, the B57/58 seems pretty good, not even just relative to other BMW engines but in general, it seems like a reliable and decent engine...but wow, is that ever a small bit of info to support an investment like this. I would love to know more on the technical side -- either in favour of or against this powerplant and trans.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

@ChasingOurTrunks,

Given that the axles are made by a tractor manufacturer specifically for the IG, I doubt there will be many common off the shelf components. TMaybe there will be some commonality for wheel bearings or some typical high wear items, but axle shafts, ring and pinions, etc. expect to be IG specific. This is where Toyota really shines. I hate most Toyota interiors (LC200 excepted), think most of their seats are medieval torture devices (LC200 excepted), and don't find them to be particularly appealing in many cases (LC200 excepted), but they're clearly engineered to be easy to assemble, easy to service, with loads of common parts, and cheap to run for a very long time from a maintenance standpoint. That's why the list of cars making 200,000 miles is dominated by Toyota and some LS V8 domestic SUVs.

When I started getting excited about the IG, it was because the price was going to be more Wrangler than Land Cruiser. I could justify the cost of increased BMW specific maintenance given the huge gulf in cost of entry. That's precisely why I drive a Land Rover and not Land Cruiser currently. I do maybe ~7,000 miles (12,000 km) of trips through the year. Given the small mileage, it made more sense to me to buy a used Land Rover at half the used Land Cruiser cost and keep a healthy maintenance budget because a Land Rover indisputably is more expensive to maintain than a Toyota.

My excitement has faded with the IG because, despite my questions, and a lot of looking, I haven't been able to get ahold of the maintenance manual to see if any of my BMW concerns are valid or not with the IG version of the B58, but given BMW engine design and class action lawsuits on timing chains which have now been relocated to the back of the engine it's not a really warm fuzzy feeling. Granted the B58 could be an absolute dream. After all, the Cummins 5.9 and 6.7 inline 6 architecture has to be one of the best motors of all time, but their 5.0 V8 was a total dud with compound turbo issues, a lack of parts, less power, but at least it consumed just as much fuel. The B58 could well surprise me. All manufacturers have ups and downs.

However, having to spend thousands to replace plastic cooling parts like on my Land Rover is fine if the vehicle is $30k less than a Land Cruiser, but now it's sounding like that cost difference will be pretty small when the IG goes on sale in NA. I can do Land Rover maintenance cost if it's $30k less than a Land Cruiser for the buy in. I won't do BMW/Land Rover maintenance cost when the buy in is close to the Land Cruiser. My ideally specced New Defender is $65k. I cannot get a Land Cruiser 300 in Lexus LX600 guise for less than $95,000. The big unknown is what is the IG going to cost and what is it going to cost to maintain?

Some of the BMW problems will let you know well before catastrophic failure if you're paying attention like oil leaks, valve guides, etc. The cooling system parts can go either way as well as turbo issues. Either way, I certainly wouldn't expect any cost savings for IG parts over BMW parts. Otherwise BMW owners will just buy IG parts.

I did a bit of fun price math over at TheIneosForum on the question of pricing (Apologies SkiWill if you are over there too and this is a repeat; I figured it might be useful to others even if you have seen it already).

On one hand, Ineos has stated we'd be hard pressed to hit $100k with a fully kitted Grenadier. So, that tells us $70k-$80k base pricing in the US, which is pretty high and speaks to that value proposition that I think we were all hoping the Ineos would be. On the other hand, when we convert the prices of the Grenadier in Australia and the UK to USD, and compare that to the price of similar vehicles (Jeep and Defender), it suggests that a competitive price for the Gren in the USA will be in the mid-$50k to mid $60k range, which is much more palatable. Here's the chart with references:

Location	Grenadier	Jeep	Defender	Ford Ranger
USA	N/A	$58,490 (Source)	$58,300 (Source)	$30,460 (Source)
England	$72,467	$77,801 (Source)	$77,635 (Source)	$49,284 (Source)
Australia	$66,164	$66,164 (Source)	$69,650 (Source)	$39,109 (Source)

So based on the above chart, the Defender and Jeep are both proportionally priced in England and Australia when converted to USD. Essentially, both the Jeep and the Defender cost the same, relative to each other, in both the USA and the UK (they are both about 25% more expensive in the UK). The Jeep and Defender are also relatively very closely priced when comparing the Australian prices to the US prices, as they are about 14% more expensive in Australia than they are in the US, give or take 2%.

Based on that math, a USA Grenadier could be as much as 25% cheaper than a UK Grenadier, or as much as 14% cheaper than an Australian Grenadier, meaning it's prices would be at about $56,901 (relative to Aus pricing) or $54,350 (relative to UK pricing). One can hope, right?

I'm not too worried about the axles or the availability of parts for said axles at this stage. I believe the axles are made by Cararro, and Cararro provide axles for John Deere, Case, CNH, Caterpillar, JLG, Terex, Trak, Astec, New Holland, Gehl, Pettibone and Komatsu equipment amongst others. That's a lot of manufacturers using Cararro axles, which suggests that most of the world will at least have a supply chain for industrial users that should make parts easy enough to get. Cararro's website has some interesting claims about the number of manufacturers they work with, their parts distribution network (dedicated staffing in 90 countries just for parts) and a few other details that are promising. It's not necessarily "parts on every shelf" like Toyota with their decades of market penetration, but the existing supply chain is grounds for optimism.

With regards to the B58, I have a better understanding of your hesitation both based on your knowledge of BMW motors and your use case, but you have a great point about how even different engine designs from the same manufacturer can be dreams or lemons. The only info I've been able to find is pretty limited and tends to repeat on many sites around the internet. In sum:

- Water pumps can fail prematurely (A spare water pump is standard kit for backcountry travel imo).
- Coolant loss (related to water pump failure, can be catastrophic but basic daily checks of fluid levels eliminate that risk and from my perspective this should also be standard for backcountry travel)
- Valve Cover leaks (Gasket failure, and non-catastrophic. Top up the oil till you get home if it's minor. Gaskets are easy to replace if needed in the field.)
- PCV Valve Failure (a component on the valve cover; the diaphragm inside can crack. Seems to be a mileage/maintenance issue. It's not clear to me what it means for the operation of the engine if this breaks in the field - seems non-catastrophic, just the engine will burn oil)
- Oil Filter gets stuck in oil filter housing when changing them (Recommendation is to just be careful when switching filters)
- VANOS problems - solenoid for VVT fails, usually around 80-100k miles. Tricky to fix as it's back near the timing chain, but it can be done without an engine pull and 80-100k miles is getting into timing chain territory anyway.

In terms of forum discussions elsewhere, whether it's Reddit or other BMW-specific spaces, I'm not finding a ton beyond those things above - the gist of it is even with these problems, the B58 is rock solid. And, the problems above are all quite minor, I think can be addressed with simple spares in the field, and are generally caught with regular maintenance, not issues that are likely to cause you to sit down and be stuck. Apparently Toyota did a bunch of reliability and durability testing on the B58 before putting it in the Supra - I'd love to see the findings of that testing, but obviously they were OK as the motor made the grade.

 

[nickw]

I did a bit of fun price math over at TheIneosForum on the question of pricing (Apologies SkiWill if you are over there too and this is a repeat; I figured it might be useful to others even if you have seen it already).

On one hand, Ineos has stated we'd be hard pressed to hit $100k with a fully kitted Grenadier. So, that tells us $70k-$80k base pricing in the US, which is pretty high and speaks to that value proposition that I think we were all hoping the Ineos would be. On the other hand, when we convert the prices of the Grenadier in Australia and the UK to USD, and compare that to the price of similar vehicles (Jeep and Defender), it suggests that a competitive price for the Gren in the USA will be in the mid-$50k to mid $60k range, which is much more palatable. Here's the chart with references:

Location	Grenadier	Jeep	Defender	Ford Ranger
USA	N/A	$58,490 (Source)	$58,300 (Source)	$30,460 (Source)
England	$72,467	$77,801 (Source)	$77,635 (Source)	$49,284 (Source)
Australia	$66,164	$66,164 (Source)	$69,650 (Source)	$39,109 (Source)

So based on the above chart, the Defender and Jeep are both proportionally priced in England and Australia when converted to USD. Essentially, both the Jeep and the Defender cost the same, relative to each other, in both the USA and the UK (they are both about 25% more expensive in the UK). The Jeep and Defender are also relatively very closely priced when comparing the Australian prices to the US prices, as they are about 14% more expensive in Australia than they are in the US, give or take 2%.

Based on that math, a USA Grenadier could be as much as 25% cheaper than a UK Grenadier, or as much as 14% cheaper than an Australian Grenadier, meaning it's prices would be at about $56,901 (relative to Aus pricing) or $54,350 (relative to UK pricing). One can hope, right?

I'm not too worried about the axles or the availability of parts for said axles at this stage. I believe the axles are made by Cararro, and Cararro provide axles for John Deere, Case, CNH, Caterpillar, JLG, Terex, Trak, Astec, New Holland, Gehl, Pettibone and Komatsu equipment amongst others. That's a lot of manufacturers using Cararro axles, which suggests that most of the world will at least have a supply chain for industrial users that should make parts easy enough to get. Cararro's website has some interesting claims about the number of manufacturers they work with, their parts distribution network (dedicated staffing in 90 countries just for parts) and a few other details that are promising. It's not necessarily "parts on every shelf" like Toyota with their decades of market penetration, but the existing supply chain is grounds for optimism.

With regards to the B58, I have a better understanding of your hesitation both based on your knowledge of BMW motors and your use case, but you have a great point about how even different engine designs from the same manufacturer can be dreams or lemons. The only info I've been able to find is pretty limited and tends to repeat on many sites around the internet. In sum:

- Water pumps can fail prematurely (A spare water pump is standard kit for backcountry travel imo).
- Coolant loss (related to water pump failure, can be catastrophic but basic daily checks of fluid levels eliminate that risk and from my perspective this should also be standard for backcountry travel)
- Valve Cover leaks (Gasket failure, and non-catastrophic. Top up the oil till you get home if it's minor. Gaskets are easy to replace if needed in the field.)
- PCV Valve Failure (a component on the valve cover; the diaphragm inside can crack. Seems to be a mileage/maintenance issue. It's not clear to me what it means for the operation of the engine if this breaks in the field - seems non-catastrophic, just the engine will burn oil)
- Oil Filter gets stuck in oil filter housing when changing them (Recommendation is to just be careful when switching filters)
- VANOS problems - solenoid for VVT fails, usually around 80-100k miles. Tricky to fix as it's back near the timing chain, but it can be done without an engine pull and 80-100k miles is getting into timing chain territory anyway.

In terms of forum discussions elsewhere, whether it's Reddit or other BMW-specific spaces, I'm not finding a ton beyond those things above - the gist of it is even with these problems, the B58 is rock solid. And, the problems above are all quite minor, I think can be addressed with simple spares in the field, and are generally caught with regular maintenance, not issues that are likely to cause you to sit down and be stuck. Apparently Toyota did a bunch of reliability and durability testing on the B58 before putting it in the Supra - I'd love to see the findings of that testing, but obviously they were OK as the motor made the grade.

But a Supra and a rig like the Gren have VERY different duty cycles and field requirements....I'd be hesitant to compare one with the other.

A lot of my negative, or what is perceived as negative, is just the way I think and the questions I'd personally ask Ineos coming across as me posing those questions as concerns, I know none of us can answer.

I will pose this though, have we seen any other manuf. re-purpose engines & trans out of a light-duty consumer type rig into a med-duty commercial type rig? Honest question. Toyota has, they use their 3.5L in the new Tacoma, in the US only, albeit it's a simple, N/A V6 not sure if the trans is the same. You do see it a bit with Ford/Chevy/Dodge with crossover from their trucks to cars, although in most/all the cases they update the engines with heavier duty blocks and make tweaks. To me the difference with those domestics is they design, from the ground up, an engine to work across platforms so say, a 6.4 Hemi, is tested to work in a truck with some HD tweaks and a car without those tweaks from the ground up. The B58/ZF51 was designed for car/light suv platform from the start, which makes it unique in that regard but maybe there are other examples of manuf. doing this?

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

But a Supra and a rig like the Gren have VERY different duty cycles and field requirements....I'd be hesitant to compare one with the other.

A lot of my negative, or what is perceived as negative, is just the way I think and the questions I'd personally ask Ineos coming across as me posing those questions as concerns, I know none of us can answer.

I will pose this though, have we seen any other manuf. re-purpose engines & trans out of a light-duty consumer type rig into a med-duty commercial type rig? Honest question. Toyota has, they use their 3.5L in the new Tacoma, in the US only, albeit it's a simple, N/A V6 not sure if the trans is the same. You do see it a bit with Ford/Chevy/Dodge with crossover from their trucks to cars, although in most/all the cases they update the engines with heavier duty blocks and make tweaks. To me the difference with those domestics is they design, from the ground up, an engine to work across platforms so say, a 6.4 Hemi, is tested to work in a truck with some HD tweaks and a car without those tweaks from the ground up. The B58/ZF51 was designed for car/light suv platform from the start, which makes it unique in that regard but maybe there are other examples of manuf. doing this?

Very different duty cycles for sure, but the testing methods and results would still be informative. The Gren is definitely heavier but if it's geared properly that shouldn't on it's own cause more wear and tear on the motor; on the other hand, average RPM and the number of heat/cool cycles that Toyota tested to in the Supra could translate into information related to how it'll perform in the Grenadier (i.e if Toyota tested it for 10,000 heat/cool cycles at an average of 9,000 RPM, and the Gren averages 5,000 RPM in regular use and even assuming two cycles per day, that's 13 years, and from that I'd be pretty confident in the long-term stoutness of the motor).

I don't perceive your questions a negative Nick - like I said I think we want the same information for the same reasons. Perhaps I'm more "glass is half full" because I already have $500 on the line for this thing but in reality, the questions we have and are discussing are super valuable for me as I'm only months away from having to put down a few thousand bucks that is non-refundable, so I want to be as sure as I can be for being an early adopter.

As to your question about other manufacturers repurposing engines and trans -- that is a good question. I don't know if there are other examples of that as I don't know enough about all the various engine variants. I'm also not sure how "ship of Theseus" this would be -- sharing a block may be super common, but how much that block is bored out, the stroke, etc. all come into play too. How many parts get changed before it's no longer considered the same engine it was before? I know that's more rhetorical but I think this question is a well worth exploring further

I was looking into the B58 torque figures and found an interesting article here, but a few key takeaways that stood out to me:

- According to the earlier article, the B58's predecessors were both cases of BMW being a bit flat-footed at launch; the first was because Nissan beat them to the punch of a high-HP 6 cylinder and they played catchup. The second was a few years later in the midst of the 2008 financial crisis which resulted in cost cutting on the second iteration. The 58 however doesn't appear to have these contextually-attributed challenges that will contribute to shortcomings. This sounds a bit like apologistic reaching from a fan (no problem with that, I do that all the time, I just like to note the possible bias) but it was interesting nonetheless given the discussion about the historical quality of BMW engines.

- It's block design is pretty robust compared to predecessors, and has a highly modular approach to making a motor; for example, while the B58 does have an electric water pump just like the good ol' days, that one is for the Turbos; the engine also has what's referred to as a Heat Management Module. It makes reference to an internal coolant flow rate rotary valve, and from the pictures it looks like a whole unit that needs to be bolted onto the side of the motor. This seems in some ways simple -- the module looks relatively easy to take on and off -- but in other ways really irritatingly complex as it doesn't give me a "you can rebuild it with a kit" vibe, and knowing how these things go, I am worried that if you need a $30 dollar seal or $5.00 spring, you'll have to buy the $1700 Heat Control Module as a unit...we shall see.

- It looks like it's more than just the valve timing solenoids at the back near the cam chain - that article references that other engine accessories like alternators are also located at the back. On one hand this might keep them up and out of the mud a bit better than others, which usually means longer life, but they always give out eventually and depending on how tucked in they are, that may not be a trail-side repair.

I really can't wait till someone takes delivery and snaps us a few hundred pics of the engine in the bay so we can see where everything is laid out.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Just to source that 100K remark, I believe it came from a story on the 2022 Toronto Event:
(last sentence, quoting Greg Clark VP Americas)

The 2023 Ineos Grenadier puts the off-roading experience first

It’s the rugged off-roader the Defender is not.

www.thestar.com

At that time 100K CAD was ~77K USD.

Since then there have been a number or developments (not limited to the following)

- There was an increase right after the first ROW orders (Fall 2022) were placed (~12% ??)

- Currently the "starting around 50K GBP" quoted in the June 2022 article is 58GBP per the IA UK website

- Basic non-Belstaff Editions are now off the table for NA release (IIRC)

- Sir Jim was quote in an interview as saying, to paraphrase, if they could do it all over again not sure they would (context: the unexpected delays and higher costs of the bringing this vehicle to market)

- Nearly a year will have gone by if they do indeed announce NA pricing next month.

- A number of things IA has said would be, simply haven't.


The current Belstaffs start at ~86K USD, without options for that trim level but there is a tax included. Maybe a wash with added options. Say 85K USD for that "hard pressed" spec. Or ~114K CAD.

Again, no non-Belstaff versions expected in NA at this time.

Now you reduce by x %. because Euro made cars are shipped to and then sold cheaper in NA than their place of mfr.

And why is that again ? Market conditions ? IA doesn't really need the money ?

Thanks for that info @klahanie I couldn't quite remember where Ineos made the comment about the $100k. You are right there has been a lot changing since then. I think I can do all the price comparisons I can think of but until I see an official website with American pricing on it from Ineos I'll be managing my expectations accordingly, and not expecting this thing to be cheap!

 

[JackW]

Here are some pics of the engine compartment - can't see much for the typical big plastic cover and a pic of the available colors - I kind of liked the light blue

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Some of the BMW problems will let you know well before catastrophic failure if you're paying attention like oil leaks, valve guides, etc. The cooling system parts can go either way as well as turbo issues. Either way, I certainly wouldn't expect any cost savings for IG parts over BMW parts. Otherwise BMW owners will just buy IG parts.

I was thinking about this conversation and remembered something related to this comment — do any of you folks remember the Interchange manuals from back in the day? Basically they were paper catalogs that I remember auto parts shops had. If you had an 86 Cadillac Coup de Ville that needed a distributor, the Caddy part number is 677899 and costs $75. The interchange manual would tell you that the Chevrolet part number is 377899, and only costs $35, and is the same part. Folks saved a lot of cash putting Chevy parts in their Caddies back in the day - so I suppose the BMW $$$ part being the same as an Ineos $$ part has a precedent.

I just did a quick google and it looks like this is still a thing - but at $700 for the most official looking option after a 30 second google, that’s a big bite for a home handyman, but there may be cheaper options.

Give it a year till they add the Ineos options — next to axle parts, if we see “Italian Unicorn Horn Composite - no interchange available” or something, you guys can make fun of me. But if it says “see - Toyota Land Cruiser” I’m going to post a photo of my the most sarcastic and silly smug face I can muster. Should be worth at least a chuckle or two!

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Here are some pics of the engine compartment - can't see much for the typical big plastic cover and a pic of the available colors - I kind of liked the light blue

View attachment 773848View attachment 773849View attachment 773850View attachment 773851View attachment 773852View attachment 773853View attachment 773854

Thanks Jack. It is hard to see where they’ve bolted the bits. There does look to be room at the front of the motor to turn a bit of a wrench once the air intakes are off and out of the way, but at the same time it’s set very far back so if there is service work at the back of it, it could be tricky. It looks like the air box and assembly on the left lift out and there’s plenty of room to be had for maintenance. On the right it’s a bit crowded looking towards the middle and back, but the front corner should have room. Now the question is where are the service items!

Also I have to say kudos to whomever in Ineos’ marketing department for using steel jerry cans to show the colour. I suppose you could say it’s cheesy or pandering to the market but I think it’s quite a clever twist on a boring swatch in a binder.

 

[nickw]

Thanks Jack. It is hard to see where they’ve bolted the bits. There does look to be room at the front of the motor to turn a bit of a wrench once the air intakes are off and out of the way, but at the same time it’s set very far back so if there is service work at the back of it, it could be tricky. It looks like the air box and assembly on the left lift out and there’s plenty of room to be had for maintenance. On the right it’s a bit crowded looking towards the middle and back, but the front corner should have room. Now the question is where are the service items!

Also I have to say kudos to whomever in Ineos’ marketing department for using steel jerry cans to show the colour. I suppose you could say it’s cheesy or pandering to the market but I think it’s quite a clever twist on a boring swatch in a binder.

It's a bit cheesy and totally pandering but I agree - it's kinda a cool.....

 

[Beardy]

I did a bit of fun price math over at TheIneosForum on the question of pricing (Apologies SkiWill if you are over there too and this is a repeat; I figured it might be useful to others even if you have seen it already).

On one hand, Ineos has stated we'd be hard pressed to hit $100k with a fully kitted Grenadier. So, that tells us $70k-$80k base pricing in the US, which is pretty high and speaks to that value proposition that I think we were all hoping the Ineos would be. On the other hand, when we convert the prices of the Grenadier in Australia and the UK to USD, and compare that to the price of similar vehicles (Jeep and Defender), it suggests that a competitive price for the Gren in the USA will be in the mid-$50k to mid $60k range, which is much more palatable. Here's the chart with references:

Location	Grenadier	Jeep	Defender	Ford Ranger
USA	N/A	$58,490 (Source)	$58,300 (Source)	$30,460 (Source)
England	$72,467	$77,801 (Source)	$77,635 (Source)	$49,284 (Source)
Australia	$66,164	$66,164 (Source)	$69,650 (Source)	$39,109 (Source)

So based on the above chart, the Defender and Jeep are both proportionally priced in England and Australia when converted to USD. Essentially, both the Jeep and the Defender cost the same, relative to each other, in both the USA and the UK (they are both about 25% more expensive in the UK). The Jeep and Defender are also relatively very closely priced when comparing the Australian prices to the US prices, as they are about 14% more expensive in Australia than they are in the US, give or take 2%.

Based on that math, a USA Grenadier could be as much as 25% cheaper than a UK Grenadier, or as much as 14% cheaper than an Australian Grenadier, meaning it's prices would be at about $56,901 (relative to Aus pricing) or $54,350 (relative to UK pricing). One can hope, right?

I'm not too worried about the axles or the availability of parts for said axles at this stage. I believe the axles are made by Cararro, and Cararro provide axles for John Deere, Case, CNH, Caterpillar, JLG, Terex, Trak, Astec, New Holland, Gehl, Pettibone and Komatsu equipment amongst others. That's a lot of manufacturers using Cararro axles, which suggests that most of the world will at least have a supply chain for industrial users that should make parts easy enough to get. Cararro's website has some interesting claims about the number of manufacturers they work with, their parts distribution network (dedicated staffing in 90 countries just for parts) and a few other details that are promising. It's not necessarily "parts on every shelf" like Toyota with their decades of market penetration, but the existing supply chain is grounds for optimism.

With regards to the B58, I have a better understanding of your hesitation both based on your knowledge of BMW motors and your use case, but you have a great point about how even different engine designs from the same manufacturer can be dreams or lemons. The only info I've been able to find is pretty limited and tends to repeat on many sites around the internet. In sum:

- Water pumps can fail prematurely (A spare water pump is standard kit for backcountry travel imo).
- Coolant loss (related to water pump failure, can be catastrophic but basic daily checks of fluid levels eliminate that risk and from my perspective this should also be standard for backcountry travel)
- Valve Cover leaks (Gasket failure, and non-catastrophic. Top up the oil till you get home if it's minor. Gaskets are easy to replace if needed in the field.)
- PCV Valve Failure (a component on the valve cover; the diaphragm inside can crack. Seems to be a mileage/maintenance issue. It's not clear to me what it means for the operation of the engine if this breaks in the field - seems non-catastrophic, just the engine will burn oil)
- Oil Filter gets stuck in oil filter housing when changing them (Recommendation is to just be careful when switching filters)
- VANOS problems - solenoid for VVT fails, usually around 80-100k miles. Tricky to fix as it's back near the timing chain, but it can be done without an engine pull and 80-100k miles is getting into timing chain territory anyway.

In terms of forum discussions elsewhere, whether it's Reddit or other BMW-specific spaces, I'm not finding a ton beyond those things above - the gist of it is even with these problems, the B58 is rock solid. And, the problems above are all quite minor, I think can be addressed with simple spares in the field, and are generally caught with regular maintenance, not issues that are likely to cause you to sit down and be stuck. Apparently Toyota did a bunch of reliability and durability testing on the B58 before putting it in the Supra - I'd love to see the findings of that testing, but obviously they were OK as the motor made the grade.

Just FYI
I haven’t tried it myself but others who are interested in them are saying 110-120k AU when you spec one up on our local configurator.
A bit of coin to drop on an untested vehicle

 

[nickw]

Just to source that 100K remark, I believe it came from a story on the 2022 Toronto Event:
(last sentence, quoting Greg Clark VP Americas)

The 2023 Ineos Grenadier puts the off-roading experience first

It’s the rugged off-roader the Defender is not.

www.thestar.com

At that time 100K CAD was ~77K USD.

Since then there have been a number or developments (not limited to the following)

- There was an increase right after the first ROW orders (Fall 2022) were placed (~12% ??)

- Currently the "starting around 50K GBP" quoted in the June 2022 article is 58GBP per the IA UK website

- Basic non-Belstaff Editions are now off the table for NA release (IIRC)

- Sir Jim was quote in an interview as saying, to paraphrase, if they could do it all over again not sure they would (context: the unexpected delays and higher costs of the bringing this vehicle to market)

- Nearly a year will have gone by if they do indeed announce NA pricing next month.

- A number of things IA has said would be, simply haven't.


The current Belstaffs start at ~86K USD, without options for that trim level but there is a tax included. Maybe a wash with added options. Say 85K USD for that "hard pressed" spec. Or ~114K CAD.

Again, no non-Belstaff versions expected in NA at this time.

Now you reduce by x %. because Euro made cars are shipped to and then sold cheaper in NA than their place of mfr.

And why is that again ? Market conditions ? IA doesn't really need the money ?

My guess all along has been $85-90k in the US, it's going to be up there with the LC200's. They are pulling buyers that will spend that IMO. That is not taking into consideration secondary markets, I can see guys getting them for $85k and re-selling for $100k+, like the Bronco's when they first came out.....so "effective" price could be much more than MSRP.

 

[mk216v]

The fact that it's a "8HP" is meaningless. That's like saying I have a "TH" trans in my truck and leaving out if it's a TH200, TH250, TH350, TH400 or TH475....ones is designed for lightweight cars the other for a dump truck.

It's the same trans, based on what I've seen, they put in the Supra and other lightweight BMW passenger cars (3 series, 2 series), model 8HP51. I'm sure they've done their homework but the math doesn't pencil out to me when the trans was designed for cars the weigh ~4k and below.

Not in anyway suggesting it's not up to the task - but it's dubious (to me).

You are correct, my mistake for not being clearer.
I believe the IG is using the 8HP70 vs the 8HP75; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_8HP_transmission
Unsure why you think it'd be the 8HP51 from the 3Series/Supra.
I will confirm...

Forget the axles - IFS/IRS has proven perfectly durable. This rig is not a reincarnated LC70 series, not even close, it uses a complex engine / trans that cannot be field repaired (or repaired effectively at all until we understand the service center strategy).....that will always and forever be the weak link.

Would you take a Supra or BMW 3 series into the middle of BFE? That's the question you need to ask yourself.

We've had multiple BMW's and they've been (mostly) great and trouble free....but they are not simple/durable machines that I'd go travel through the Sahara / Africa in, especially not one that has not been tested for 10+ years.

A modern Defender is different IMO, LR has what 80 years of development, design iterations and fine tuning of their rigs over and over, complex yes, but they have a track record of succeeding.

I think it was Robbie Gordon who wanted to win Dakar, he built his trucks ground up using best parts.....they broke. Best HD axles, huge V8 engines, HD trans, super robust frame, wheels, etc....still broke and got destroyed by the factory teams using unibody/small displacement engines. A rig is more than a sum of it's parts, it's execution, IG has not proven anything yet to me.

Who here is TRULY going to travel RTW with any vehicle, including an IG? Maybe 1-2% here? Otherwise, cross-country/overland reliability is important for the weekend warrior or remote-worker-traveler...how far is too far to be out in the backcountry, where if you have a problem with the IG, you can get to a service center (if you don't have your own scan tool with you and can field repair something)?

And a modern Defender is more reliable than an IG might be? ROFLMAO! Umm, no. Just the # of ECM's = badnewsbears. Heck, the sweet spot of modern Rovers ('05-09) has enough quirks on their own that can disable a vehicle (well, until you cycle the key at once and then poof, issue fixed! WTH...)...a '10+ gets even more complicated, then come timing chain related issues. Would have to count the # of '03+ Rovers having come thru, but hundreds and hundreds and hundreds (yes, BMWs too--but much more reliable than Rovers).

I do agree with you; for the 1-2% planning RTW travel, get an LC70 (or a W460 300GD w/ very simple and robust OM617 like my first--although it'll provide even more of a "scenic touring, Driving Miss Daisy" experience than the LC70 will) and enjoy the simplicity.

If people rant and rave about it having solid axles (that we don't know the specs of) we can pick on it for having an engine designed for a midsize sedan (that I'll admit we are lacking info on)

In all seriousness, I'll ask the question in reverse, why is this better than a LC300 or a LR Defender? Bother are cheaper, easier to source parts for, easier to service, sim capacities, are designed/engineered by companies that have a solid track record and are available. Neither of which seem to get the attention the IG gets, both got slammed for softening up and being shells of their former selves and nobody has called either one 'simple'.

If you can get behind the IG then you have to be willing to vouch for an X3, Supra or other rigs like Cayenne's, Tuaregs and their ilk from a reliability and longevity perspective, assuming you are sticking to GVWR.

Definitely unfair IMHO to put X3 and Cayenne/Treg in the same sentence about reliability/longevity. All gens of X3 are so much more frail than the 955/957/958/9Y0 Cayenne or Treg 1/2/3. Cay/Treg's are seriously overbuilt; X3 is not. Of all 8 Euro's (Audi, BMW, Land Rover, Mercedes+Sprinter, MINI, Porsche, VW) our teams including ex-dealership/factory-trained/Master technicians focus on, Porsche is BY FAR THE MOST RELIABLE marque overall (especially Cayenne, 911, Boxster/Cayman).
Thankfully the SUV's depreciate like rocks for the most part, so would I drive a well-maintained '08 Cayenne Base (VW VR6 NA) farther into the backcountry than a slightly used modern D110, or even my 2006 Rover Sport S/C (Jag 4.2L engine). Oh heck yeah. I'd even drive it farther than my '03 G500. YMMV.
B58 feedback from our teams as well as dealership friends in my 2nd post below...

If you want a car that is available globally, can handle a lot of load for it's size, and has a design that has been proven (ladder frame, solid axles, engine that engines using dead dinosaurs) and therefore familiar to mechanics all over the world for about 80 years now -- which is what I want -- the Grenadier is the front runner based on what we can see of the design. Execution of that design will take a couple of years to really see - proof of the pudding is in the eating, after all! And you are right to point to the LC300 and the New Defender alongside it in terms of capacity/capability, but the Gren edges out the New Defender for sure for my use case. It's certainly is a viable alternative to the LC300 for a lot of people -- I don't know enough about that platform's design to say much about it -- but the Gren is for sure better than an LC300 for me, because I cannot get an LC300 here, whereas it looks like I will be able to get a Gren.

I would again suggest a W460 G-Wagen ('79 - ~'92), like the 300GD. Super simple and basic OM617 3.0L I-5 NA engine proven at over 1M miles, ladder frame, solid axles, rear and often front hydraulic (slave cyl) diff locks.
Are the early W463 300GD's like the OM603(mechanical ink pump) a bit more modern and comfy, less snoozy to drive? Yes. But also gets into Mercedes' idiotic electronic(switch)->pneumatic(vacuum lines)->hydraulic(slave cyl at each axle) triple diff locks.

However, having to spend thousands to replace plastic cooling parts like on my Land Rover is fine if the vehicle is $30k less than a Land Cruiser, but now it's sounding like that cost difference will be pretty small when the IG goes on sale in NA. I can do Land Rover maintenance cost if it's $30k less than a Land Cruiser for the buy in. I won't do BMW/Land Rover maintenance cost when the buy in is close to the Land Cruiser. My ideally specced New Defender is $65k. I cannot get a Land Cruiser 300 in Lexus LX600 guise for less than $95,000. The big unknown is what is the IG going to cost and what is it going to cost to maintain?

An excellent point here, and something I don't always consider enough; For someone who has $75k to spend on a rig, looking at a new IG at $75k let's say, vs a $15k used but well-maintained Euro vehicle, like a 2007 Cayenne(coil susp) or 2006 LR3(air susp but converted to coil susp, in order to rule out air susp issues, which BTW are far worse on Rovers/Mercedes/early Audis like C5 allroads) than Cayennes due to Porsche's aluminum protection of the air bag bladder itself). That nets a $60,000 fund for any small deferred maintenance to get the vehicle up to snuff, a huge relief fund for future maintenance, and also $$ for excursions.

PS--that being said, shameless plug, if anyone is looking for such rigs, my 2006 RRS S/C is up for sale($$$$ already spent on deferred maint, ARB bumper/lights, Lucky8 SuspSpacersInCaseAirSuspFails, Compomotive wheels, etc), as well as my 2012 CayenneTurbo. Yes, early reservation in for an IG--business decision.
And yes, being surrounded by some of my best friends deeply involved in the Cruiser world, I've toyed with switching teams many times. HUGE respect for the capabilities of FZJ80's with simple mods, huge love of what the xxJ7x Troopies represent (like a G Kastenwagen). Still can't do it; for the love of Euro!

 

[mk216v]

Yah, I bet Ford wishes they had done that for the new Bronco... oh wait, nevermind
https://www.motor1.com/news/440652/2021-ford-bronco-color-cans/

Yes, to flip or not to flip. That may be the question !

Might be easier for you guys in the States, what with your population and more dealer/service centres. Not to mention more $$s ...

Again - ATTENTION: INEOS AMERICAS, IA needs to recognise Canada is the poor cousin and price accordingly !! >100K CAD attracts luxury tax here and will be a psychological pricing barrier, especially for the early reservation holders.

David,
Oh snap IA! You've been caught. They needed to capture a zoomed out pic for the Bronco; missing the green color at least.

Poor Canucks?? You're rich in maple syrup.

I was thinking about this conversation and remembered something related to this comment — do any of you folks remember the Interchange manuals from back in the day? Basically they were paper catalogs that I remember auto parts shops had. If you had an 86 Cadillac Coup de Ville that needed a distributor, the Caddy part number is 677899 and costs $75. The interchange manual would tell you that the Chevrolet part number is 377899, and only costs $35, and is the same part. Folks saved a lot of cash putting Chevy parts in their Caddies back in the day - so I suppose the BMW $$$ part being the same as an Ineos $$ part has a precedent.

I just did a quick google and it looks like this is still a thing - but at $700 for the most official looking option after a 30 second google, that’s a big bite for a home handyman, but there may be cheaper options.

Give it a year till they add the Ineos options — next to axle parts, if we see “Italian Unicorn Horn Composite - no interchange available” or something, you guys can make fun of me. But if it says “see - Toyota Land Cruiser” I’m going to post a photo of my the most sarcastic and silly smug face I can muster. Should be worth at least a chuckle or two!

Craig, this is true about the Euro aftermarket (actually I just sent an email this week to PCA(Porsche) NA about recent misinformation about this same subject, as posted by their Technical Committee in a recent Panorama issue). Quick skinny is that;
-Porsche sends out RFQ’s to the OEM manufacturers (e.g. Bosch, Beru, Pagid, etc) to decide who produces their Porsche “dealership” parts. In other words, Porsche might currently have a contract with Bosch for spark plugs, but once that contract runs out, Porsche might choose Beru next for spark plugs.
-Parts (e.g. Bosch, Beru, Pagid, etc) have the manufacturer’s logo on them, regardless of how they are later packaged/sold; parts either get packaged in a “OEM” manufacturer (e.g. Bosch, Beru Pagid, etc) box and sold in the aftermarket, or they also get a Porsche/VW/Audi/etc logo stamped on them and get packaged in a “dealership” (i.e. Porsche branded) box and sold at a Porsche dealership.
-As long as the initial fitment-cross was completed correctly (e.g. a 955 Cayenne Base (VR6) and Touareg1 (VR6) will use the same spark plugs since they’re sharing engines), the same manufacturer part number (i.e. Bosch spark plug part #) is being sent out regardless of whether it is in the Bosch box and sold at PelicanParts/RockAuto/SSF/IMC/WP/etc, or it is in a Porsche “dealership” box and sold at a dealership. In other words, for a 955 Cayenne Base application, a Bosch spark plug in a Bosch box will be the same Bosch spark plug that is in a Porsche branded box. There is no difference in parts quality.

So....what this means is that when a spark plug eventually fails on a new IG, it'll have an IG part # in the IG parts catalog. It'll also have a Bosch or Beru or NGK # "printed" on it. Call an IG dealer for the plug price; $28.50/ea let's say. Search the Bosch or Beru or NGK # at one of the aftermarket parts warehouses (note that many of these online outfits direct drop ship from a larger W/D, so some of the online places are just a middleman movers with NO warehouse/brick&mortar overhead....grrrr...off soapbox) and they whore out part prices, so the same spark plug might be $19/ea from them. Same plug, just one is an IG-branded parts box with IG stamp, other is direct from the actual parts mfr (Bosch or Beru or NGK).

I'm not too worried about the axles or the availability of parts for said axles at this stage. I believe the axles are made by Cararro, and Cararro provide axles for John Deere, Case, CNH, Caterpillar, JLG, Terex, Trak, Astec, New Holland, Gehl, Pettibone and Komatsu equipment amongst others. That's a lot of manufacturers using Cararro axles, which suggests that most of the world will at least have a supply chain for industrial users that should make parts easy enough to get. Cararro's website has some interesting claims about the number of manufacturers they work with, their parts distribution network (dedicated staffing in 90 countries just for parts) and a few other details that are promising. It's not necessarily "parts on every shelf" like Toyota with their decades of market penetration, but the existing supply chain is grounds for optimism.

With regards to the B58, I have a better understanding of your hesitation both based on your knowledge of BMW motors and your use case, but you have a great point about how even different engine designs from the same manufacturer can be dreams or lemons. The only info I've been able to find is pretty limited and tends to repeat on many sites around the internet. In sum:

- Water pumps can fail prematurely (A spare water pump is standard kit for backcountry travel imo).
- Coolant loss (related to water pump failure, can be catastrophic but basic daily checks of fluid levels eliminate that risk and from my perspective this should also be standard for backcountry travel)
- Valve Cover leaks (Gasket failure, and non-catastrophic. Top up the oil till you get home if it's minor. Gaskets are easy to replace if needed in the field.)
- PCV Valve Failure (a component on the valve cover; the diaphragm inside can crack. Seems to be a mileage/maintenance issue. It's not clear to me what it means for the operation of the engine if this breaks in the field - seems non-catastrophic, just the engine will burn oil)
- Oil Filter gets stuck in oil filter housing when changing them (Recommendation is to just be careful when switching filters)
- VANOS problems - solenoid for VVT fails, usually around 80-100k miles. Tricky to fix as it's back near the timing chain, but it can be done without an engine pull and 80-100k miles is getting into timing chain territory anyway.

In terms of forum discussions elsewhere, whether it's Reddit or other BMW-specific spaces, I'm not finding a ton beyond those things above - the gist of it is even with these problems, the B58 is rock solid. And, the problems above are all quite minor, I think can be addressed with simple spares in the field, and are generally caught with regular maintenance, not issues that are likely to cause you to sit down and be stuck. Apparently Toyota did a bunch of reliability and durability testing on the B58 before putting it in the Supra - I'd love to see the findings of that testing, but obviously they were OK as the motor made the grade.

I'm gathering more info from our ex-dealership/factory-trained/BMW Master techs, but so far, one of them had this response to above info;
Overall for BMWs, yes, these are issues that have frustrated us over the past almost 20yrs with modern BMWs. However, specifically regarding the B58, these same issues haven't been really problematic yet and that includes friends still at BMW. The B58 engine has proven itself to be reliable thus far-vehicles seen getting up to 80k.

 

[SkiWill]

Based on that math, a USA Grenadier could be as much as 25% cheaper than a UK Grenadier, or as much as 14% cheaper than an Australian Grenadier, meaning it's prices would be at about $56,901 (relative to Aus pricing) or $54,350 (relative to UK pricing). One can hope, right?

That's a lot of hope. I believe according to MT https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-ineos-grenadier-first-drive-review/ it will start at over $70,000 USD and prices have only been heading in one direction lately, and that's up. I don't think one of these will get out the door in the US for less than $80k with any options or accessories whatsoever.

That said, given the prices of rickety old Land Rover Defenders and 110s which are basically "100 loose rivets flying in close formation" (one of the most humorous things ASPW ever said though he was referencing RRC) I'm sure they'll sell every one that they can actually get built and imported into the US. Just not to me...